Pilot job action?!

[AMFAinMIAMI]

As I have read through this sites threads about what is going on with the Pilots it baffles me how many of US the AMT's have so much to say about what damage or influence the actions of the pilots is/isn't effecting AA. Do you all agree that we at AA the AMT's have our own problems. How we replace the TWU. What are we going to do over the next few yrs? What we have fought for in the past is going to be taken away, local agreements which made our daily operation run. How those letters effected what happened at the holidays, O/T and PV's. Less vaction for those with 25 yrs plus.

our Pension is frozen, soon we will be forced into a 401k with a match. What ever the company wants to do they are just going to do.

What are You going to do? Are you just going to let it happen? How much pride do you have in YOUR craft.

The Pilots may get taken to court by AA, they may get a better deal since they seem to have the power. But we all know that the FAA and the BK judge wil side with AA. Unless we the AMT's stick together do the job we are paid to do we will suffer the rath of AA.

Most of the AMT's of AA are company people. (just my belief) For all the yrs you have been here you have let the TWU and the company talk you into believing that we are a team, work together. "Well" were has that gotten YOU? I read all the bickering and back and forth bs here about which union we should have how the IBT has more money. How AMFA has little money to take on the company. The TWU and the AFL-CIO have let us all down. The RLA has needed changing for many yrs, Lets find a way to get that changed so that those who folow and remain in the airline industry will be able to fight the corporate greed.

Our contract is now going to be in the hands of the judge to approve what we signed.

Isn't it time for you to think about YOUR Class and Craft, Time for You to stand up for yourselves and show YOUR WORTH TO AA.

Do you get a thrill out of someone else fighting the battle for YOU?

Over the yrs here I have heard that the F/A have more fight than the TWU. Isn't that something you would like to say for once that you were an AA AMT who finally realized that AA and the TWU have taken and taken from us and enough is enough.

Lets get rid of the TWU, bring in another union. Change the culture here at AA that the AMT's are company people and show AA that we can be a UNION that we can stick together. Lets get rid of the I GOT MINE attitude.

Find some one at your station who has cards to bring an election to AA as which one you elect to sign that is your choice. Just remember that the IBT does not have the AMTs interest as a main priority. Its all about the dues. AMFA on the other hand will in my opinion move us in a better direction.

O/H bases at the airlines are some thing we all can see, is going away. All the carriers no matter which union is there have been forced to let the companies contract out work. Its going to happen here at AA as well. The TWU has devalued us so its time to shed them.

lets not look at the attitude of some of the organizers at your stations. Think about it all on your own.

Ask your self has the TWU and AA really given me what I feel my craft is worth over all the yrs I have been here? Have they made deals that have given certain stations advantages over others?

What happens though out this whole process and what happens by the end of the yr will effect you and all of your families. Some of us will not be here, we will be forced to move on again or even change careers.

Its time to fight for what YOU believe, Fight for your Class and craft.

 

[Super FLUF]

It will look something like this:

You are not answering my questions, and it is obvious as to why - a TRO would be unenforceable.

At the end of the flight, the FA hands me a list of squawks. A couple of reading lights out, and an inoperative coffee maker. Do I write them up in the logbook? If so, how is writing up such "trivial" items as reading lights and a coffee maker not in violation of the TRO? Especially if it delays the next flight and causes a bunch of misconnects.

Scenario 2 - the flu goes around. There is a sudden spike in sick use. AA is forced to cancel flights due to a high number of sick calls. Please explain how the sick calls would not be a violation of the TRO.

 

[AirLUVer]

You are not answering my questions, and it is obvious as to why - a TRO would be unenforceable.

At the end of the flight, the FA hands me a list of squawks. A couple of reading lights out, and an inoperative coffee maker. Do I write them up in the logbook? If so, how is writing up such "trivial" items as reading lights and a coffee maker not in violation of the TRO? Especially if it delays the next flight and causes a bunch of misconnects.

Scenario 2 - the flu goes around. There is a sudden spike in sick use. AA is forced to cancel flights due to a high number of sick calls. Please explain how the sick calls would not be a violation of the TRO.

Sorry to sound completely stupid, but in reference to to your scenario number 1, how come the write ups are happening JUST prior to departure, if the FA on the inbound flight on an overnight flight told the previous crew upon arrival?

In reference to scenario number 2, in the event of a "flu epidemic", why would only pilot crew members be affected and not the rest of the "general population".

As far as any TRO could be sought by an airline against a work group, it would be based on PATTERN's of behavior. If there is a pattern that can be found through increased number of write ups, delays in reporting those said write ups, inaccurate write ups, significant changes in taxi times in comparison to historical norms, and/or increases in only one work group's percentage of sick use; there may be sufficient grounds in a judges mind to issue the TRO. If there is no facts supporting that evidence there would be a limited chance of a TRO being issued.

Now as far as enforcing said TRO, you might ask USAir pilots/USAPA what were the consequences of the injunction against them.

 

[nbmcg01]

It doesn't have to be the flu... Stress is a known contributor to illness because the immune system is affected. The main thing is to spring for a Drs. note if you become ill. CYA at the highest level. It is statistically proven that IODs go up during stressful times because employees get distracted more easily. Didn't lift and turn properly. Hurt foot/back "kicking the tires". There are so many legitimate ways to be hurt...and poor AA is self insured. The first $200,000-250,000 comes out of their pocket. Document, document, document!
While a light out or a broken coffee maker may not seem life threatening to some, anyone who has been in a long thin tube with fussy pax might disagree. It goes to the perception that AA is "falling apart". hummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

 

[AirLUVer]

It doesn't have to be the flu... Stress is a known contributor to illness because the immune system is affected. The main thing is to spring for a Drs. note if you become ill. CYA at the highest level. It is statistically proven that IODs go up during stressful times because employees get distracted more easily. Didn't lift and turn properly. Hurt foot/back "kicking the tires". There are so many legitimate ways to be hurt...and poor AA is self insured. The first $200,000-250,000 comes out of their pocket. Document, document, document!
While a light out or a broken coffee maker may not seem life threatening to some, anyone who has been in a long thin tube with fussy pax might disagree. It goes to the perception that AA is "falling apart". hummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

So Nancy it seems to me that you now are hinting at between the lines for employee's to practice self mutilation while at work so it will further damage the company further economically?

I personally never said anything about a coffee maker being frivolous,my comment was about crews waiting until departure to write something up that was reported on the inbound flight. My question is that if a flight attendent reported a problem with a coffee maker to the inbound cockpit crew and they did not document it, wouldn't those pilots be in violation of the FAR's for not writing it up.

 

[767one]

The FAA has been overseeing the airline in a heightened state since November 29th and there hasn't been an issue with the way the pilots have handled their "maintenance" issues. All these arguments about having necessary items brought to light will have little to no weight in Court. The APA will need to respond as to why as of September 13th, all of a sudden, there is a heightened amount of scrutiny being given to things ignored or put off on September 12th and everyday before that.

It is incredible easy for American to show that this is a "job action" since it started the day AFTER they abrogated their contract.

Everyone has to be smarter than that. If these things are going to work, they need to be done consistently and over the long term. In this case, on November 29th when the airline filed for bankruptcy and the FAA ANNOUNCED HEIGHTENED SCRUTINY, these "concerns" should have been started. Not the day after they get abrogated. C'mon!

During the bankruptcy, the US Airways pilots lost a similar injunction for sick out's and maintenance write up's. Why is this a surprise and how can we make the same arguments other airlines make and lose with. C'mon!

My guess is that the company will get a TRO and it will state that pilots may not write up items to affect the operation of the airline. After getting our injunction last year we asked the judge for a clarification and the judge then stated that we can not write up items specifically to afftect the operation of the airline and further stated that the injunction in no way is meant to erode the captains authority to conduct a safe flight.
The bottom line is that if the airplane has a mtc issue you can write it up. If you are sick you don't go to work. If you are fatigued don't get in an aircraft. No judge is going to put his/her career on the line and tell you that you can't write up a broken item or that you have to go to work sick or fatigued.

 

[767one]

Bob, E is actually correct. The message has gotten murkier, even amongst the pilots, that one main focus of the failed LBFO was the length of terms and the opprotunity to get a better deal in a couple of years long before the LBFO would have expired.

Getting a better deal in CHP11 in the short term was always going to be a tough road. AA has shot itself in the foot by using the most draconian terms of the 1113. With any group, there is a middle group of undecideds that AA could have took advantage of with using most of the LBFO and gettting AA out of CHP 11, earning money and playing their "new contract in years" game. They forced every fence sitter into a fight against them. I see less support for Managements moves within the pilot ranks than Netanyanhu would get for a X-rated "Muhammad in cartoons" film festival in Cairo.

I will agree with you about the draconian terms and I think the AAA management is taking this from the USAirways playbook and the coach is Jerry Glass. By the time our 2nd BK came there was no fight left in the pilots at USAirways so we saved our jobs and collectively threw away our careers.

My hat is off to the pilots at AAA and I wish you the best of luck.

Bob Moore........2 months and 16 days and I'm out the door!

 

[Bob Owens]

Folks from ALPA, the most management friendly union in America? Bwahahahahahaha!!

I came across some of their leaders back in 2001 or 2002, after 9-11. They hosted a lunch for the NYFD in Manhattan and invited reps from the other unions. They were ready to roll over before the airline even asked them to.

 

[Bob Owens]

As I have read through this sites threads about what is going on with the Pilots it baffles me how many of US the AMT's have so much to say about what damage or influence the actions of the pilots is/isn't effecting AA.

Now that the company has pretty much told mechanics not to look at airplanes, unless assigned to do so, and only look at what they tell you to look at, we should be glad the Pilots are taking a closer look. The more they write up the more opportunity we have to make up for some of what we have lost and turn out a safer product.

I was told recently that management had a hearing for one of our mechanics for reporting a defect on a plane that he was not assigned to inspect. He was assigned to assist on a different task and he happened to look up and see the defect then he reported it. Years ago he would get an "Attaboy", or a Coin or some AAcheiver points for noticing things like that, now he gets a 29F, theatened or has his CS denied.

 

[1AA]

Now that the company has pretty much told mechanics not to look at airplanes, unless assigned to do so, and only look at what they tell you to look at, we should be glad the Pilots are taking a closer look. The more they write up the more opportunity we have to make up for some of what we have lost and turn out a safer product.

I was told recently that management had a hearing for one of our mechanics for reporting a defect on a plane that he was not assigned to inspect. He was assigned to assist on a different task and he happened to look up and see the defect then he reported it. Years ago he would get an "Attaboy", or a Cion or some AAcheiver points for noticing things like that, now he gets a 29F, theatened or has his CS denied.

That is true. Reason being is that years ago we had real supervisors who worked up the ranks and knew the guys they supervised. Management at the floor level knew how to treat the AMT's and knew how to motivate and move the metal. Now you have these outsiders supervising guys that are twice their age and clueless as to what aircraft maintenance is all about. They just follow orders from the top because they do not know any better. Half the supervisors that AA hired off the street are rejects who can not even turn a wrench let alone change the oil on their own cars.

 

[Bob Owens]

My guess is that the company will get a TRO and it will state that pilots may not write up items to affect the operation of the airline. After getting our injunction last year we asked the judge for a clarification and the judge then stated that we can not write up items specifically to afftect the operation of the airline and further stated that the injunction in no way is meant to erode the captains authority to conduct a safe flight.
The bottom line is that if the airplane has a mtc issue you can write it up. If you are sick you don't go to work. If you are fatigued don't get in an aircraft. No judge is going to put his/her career on the line and tell you that you can't write up a broken item or that you have to go to work sick or fatigued.

We went through it back in 2001, pretty much the same result. The judge said its obvious something is going on, from the charts and graphs, however the company could not point to a single example of any violations. The burden of proof is still on the company. The company tried to produce a few examples but when the court asked the company what actions they took they said nothing. The Judge asked the company if they expected him to manage the company? He then thew out their TRO.
Afterwards the company terminated one mechanic, we took the case to arbitration and the employee was brought back to work , with back pay(half because the arbitrator didnt like the sequence in which the mechanic addressed the discrepancies he documented). The arbitrator did say that he would not tell a mechanic that he can only write up a certain number of discrepancies or that he has to write up the same number of discrepancies every time.

 

[Bob Owens]

That is true. Reason being is that years ago we had real supervisors who worked up the ranks and knew the guys they supervised. Management at the floor level knew how to treat the AMT's and knew how to motivate and move the metal. Now you have these outsiders supervising guys that are twice their age and clueless as to what aircraft maintenance is all about. They just follow orders from the top because they do not know any better. Half the supervisors that AA hired off the street are rejects who can not even turn a wrench let alone change the oil on their own cars.

In all fairness if they paid us well they wouldnt need any of them, we would take care of the operation ourselves. Like we used to.

They wanted total control, they got it. Now they have to figure out what to do with it.

 

[AMFAinMIAMI]

Now that the company has pretty much told mechanics not to look at airplanes, unless assigned to do so, and only look at what they tell you to look at, we should be glad the Pilots are taking a closer look. The more they write up the more opportunity we have to make up for some of what we have lost and turn out a safer product.

I was told recently that management had a hearing for one of our mechanics for reporting a defect on a plane that he was not assigned to inspect. He was assigned to assist on a different task and he happened to look up and see the defect then he reported it. Years ago he would get an "Attaboy", or a Coin or some AAcheiver points for noticing things like that, now he gets a 29F, theatened or has his CS denied.

BOB

I can't believe these statements are coming from YOU. The leader of the local which over the yrs here at AA has lead the fight as far as aircraft maintenance is concerned. Doing your job is not being worried about if the company will take away your cs. A 29F is an investigation as you well know, if the mechanic has found any problem with the aircraft that needs repair it is his job to document that. Since ANY work accomplished on an a/c is required by the GPM and the FARs. No matter how big or small there are proceedures in the MM that cover that task. We are required to follow those proceedures. We are also required to have those proceedures on hand while accomplishing them. You have preached over the yrs about being professional and that the TWU is at fault. Why we are in this position? You setup your local to emmulate a AMFA local. Leaders on the top being accountable to their members. Which is a good thing. Turning a blind eye to the faults we see as we perform our daily inspections, is that what your condoning now? Look at what your told to look at?

If over the yrs AMTs did there jobs here at AA instead of bending over and letting the TWU and AA give it to you there may be more of a fight in the union its self. Going from zero item to a hundered is a job action. But if over the yrs you have always documented what you did each night that number would have always been high and as we both know AA and the accountants keep track of all e58s each station has on each and every check. If you want to be paid and treated like a Proffesional we all need to act like one. Remember when crew chiefs did their job, not just sit in the office waiting for the mechanics to review the books, perform all the maintenanace, lookup all the paperwork, chase all the parts, call tech to defer an item, conduct a crew meeting at the beginning of the shift. Remember those days. It all starts with leadership. We should NOT LET the actions of others dictate what we should do.
There comes a time when you have to stand your ground, pick your battle and no matter what deal with it.

 

[Bob Owens]

BOB

I can't believe these statements are coming from YOU. The leader of the local which over the yrs here at AA has lead the fight as far as aircraft maintenance is concerned. Doing your job is not being worried about if the company will take away your cs. A 29F is an investigation as you well know, if the mechanic has found any problem with the aircraft that needs repair it is his job to document that. Since ANY work accomplished on an a/c is required by the GPM and the FARs. No matter how big or small there are proceedures in the MM that cover that task. We are required to follow those proceedures. We are also required to have those proceedures on hand while accomplishing them. You have preached over the yrs about being professional and that the TWU is at fault. Why we are in this position? You setup your local to emmulate a AMFA local. Leaders on the top being accountable to their members. Which is a good thing. Turning a blind eye to the faults we see as we perform our daily inspections, is that what your condoning now? Look at what your told to look at?

Dont know how you came to those conclusions from what I wrote but the answer is NO. I do not condone management harassing guys who see and report what they see, thats our job, merely reporting the cultural shift in the workplace. Hence the statement "Years ago he would get an "Attaboy", or a Coin or some AAcheiver points for noticing things like that, now he gets a 29F, theatened or has his CS denied."

 

[unionguy1]

BOB

I can't believe these statements are coming from YOU. The leader of the local which over the yrs here at AA has lead the fight as far as aircraft maintenance is concerned. Doing your job is not being worried about if the company will take away your cs. A 29F is an investigation as you well know, if the mechanic has found any problem with the aircraft that needs repair it is his job to document that. Since ANY work accomplished on an a/c is required by the GPM and the FARs. No matter how big or small there are proceedures in the MM that cover that task. We are required to follow those proceedures. We are also required to have those proceedures on hand while accomplishing them. You have preached over the yrs about being professional and that the TWU is at fault. Why we are in this position? You setup your local to emmulate a AMFA local. Leaders on the top being accountable to their members. Which is a good thing. Turning a blind eye to the faults we see as we perform our daily inspections, is that what your condoning now? Look at what your told to look at?

If over the yrs AMTs did there jobs here at AA instead of bending over and letting the TWU and AA give it to you there may be more of a fight in the union its self. Going from zero item to a hundered is a job action. But if over the yrs you have always documented what you did each night that number would have always been high and as we both know AA and the accountants keep track of all e58s each station has on each and every check. If you want to be paid and treated like a Proffesional we all need to act like one. Remember when crew chiefs did their job, not just sit in the office waiting for the mechanics to review the books, perform all the maintenanace, lookup all the paperwork, chase all the parts, call tech to defer an item, conduct a crew meeting at the beginning of the shift. Remember those days. It all starts with leadership. We should NOT LET the actions of others dictate what we should do.
There comes a time when you have to stand your ground, pick your battle and no matter what deal with it.

I Fully agree. It is ashame that mgmt calls repairing items that are written up a job action, maybe some are, buts it is not up to me to judge which items are and which items are not. Its my job to accomplish the repair whether I found the item or it was written in the log book.I will always advocate for safety of the aircraft verse worrying about a 29F.