Parker Steps Aside! Kelleher Once Again!

[Fly]

hp_fa Posted on Apr 21 2004, 10:47 AM

the UA extended stay in bankruptcy

Just gotta jump in here. I believe that when UA filed bankruptcy, they stated (the very first day) that they would most likely stay in bk for at least 18 months. So, it's not an "extended stay in bankruptcy" (yet)....it's exactly what they stated originally. Just thought I'd clear that up.

 

[SWAFA30]

FA30, you are really smart and know all the answers, but some of us who have been in and around the industry since the late 40s have seen this show before, and we know how it turns out.

I know a little bit about some stuff and I know alot about other stuff but there is much I nothing about. I would never be so arrogant to think I have all the answers. This is not the first contract SWA has negotiated with this or any other union. It is certainly not the first one that has devolved into a virtual shouting match. But ya know what. In times past when the ink on the ratification letter was dry, the parties involved got on with their lives and SWA went back to the business of making money. Call me a cock-eyed optimist but something tells me this latest go-round still has a better than average chance of turning out just like all the others. I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

The more things change, the more they remain the same. Nobody has ever figured out how to completely eliminate the human element of greed.

Past history is not always the best predictor of future performance. History was against SWA from day one, yet we are. If this all boils down to sheer greed, which is a characteriaztion you are I are simply going to have agree to disagree on, then this issue best be settled once and for all time now. Because I gotta tell ya, the flight attendant group does not have to market cornered on that particular deadly sin. Ramp agents can get greedy, so can provisioners, and ticket agents and any one of the 10s of thousands of other union members at Southwest. Once this union has been put back in their place, eventually another will rear it's head, then another and another and another.

Hope your union is happy. You have ruined Parker.

There is plenty of blame to go around for the presumptive downfall of Jim Parker. Jim Parker effectively ruined himself when he stooped to the level of the union rank and file and leadership who started slinging mud. He always, ALWAYS, had the choice and the power to simply keep his mouth shut and let fools look fools but he decided to return evil for evil. He has noone to blame for that but himself. I put my job on the line when I authorized the union to step to the table. Jim did the same thing. Messy business we're in.

You boys and girls can put a notch on your belt or nail his scalp to the wall of union headquarters, whatever it is you do.

I don't know about boys and girls. I myself am a grown man. Charming image but nevertheless I suspect one way or anothe Jim will be just fine. Don't forget, much of the company was behind Jim, to them he is now a martyr and martyrs often go on to become saints.



You talk a lot about having taken it in the shorts during the last negotiation several years back.

No I don't. You must be confusing me with another member of this forum. I was in Ground Ops when the last contract was negotiated.

The truth is Herb caved in to you then, too, what's what a lot of folks thought then and it is exactly what a lot of folks think will happen now.

On what specific issues did Herb cave to the membership in the last negotiations? I am still in the process of educating myself on past negotiations and accurate information is hard to come by on the net. I would appreciate your perspective.

You say you don't worry about anyone's tummy ache. I will agree with you there. You don't care much about anyone other than yourself and "what has the company done for me lately."

That is a grossly unfair characterization. I have repeatedly stated that I an open to a review of the specifics of how the union proposal will financially damage Southwest Airlines and I remain willing to do so.
I'm ready to look at the numbers, I am ready to look at the facts but in the absence of those facts, I am unwilling to blindly sit down, shut up and let those who know better decide what is best for me. I doubt that is how you lead your life, I would hope you would respect my right to do likewise.


No layoffs, no furloughs, no missed paydays after Sept 11th doesn;t mean squat to you.

Southwest did not keep me or anyone else on the payroll after 9/11 out of charity or compassion. The economics did not require layoffs, it is as simple as that. 52 consecutive profitable quarters. First grade math will tell you that even at the depths of the post 9/11 slump SWA was STILL MAKING MONEY. For the umpteenth time. Someone, anyone show me the facts of this unions raises taking away SWA's ability to stay competitive and I'm ready to listen.


Greed, pure and simple. From a previous e mail and a lot of your postings, I had some respect for you. No longer. You and your "meeeeeeeeeee" attitude totally disgust me.

I stand by my assertion that you and I simply have different concepts of when the threshold into greed has been crossed and I suspect that will never change. If you re-read my posts with an objective eye I think you will find an absence "give me mine and the rest be damned".
All I have ever said is that I have decided under what circumstances I am willing to do this job for this company. I have never said others should be paid less so I can be paid more. I have never said that ticket prices should be raised so I can be paid more. All I have said, in so many posts in so many ways is that I would like the company for which I have worked so hard for all these years to simply consider giving me a contract that rewards that hard work and if it is not fiscally possible to tell me why not in plain english. That is all I have ever said. But if that is the embodiment of greed and disgust then so be it. I am prepared to wear that moniker.

Bottom line - Parker is the first casualty and I am sure you all are slapping high fives.

No, not really. The bulk of the messages on SWA flight attendant boards are still expressing shock over the fact that Jim stepped down in the first place. No high-fives, no "Ding-Dong the Witch is Dead". More than anything just a sense of "Okay, What next?"

We will see how the contract turns out but the gut feel is Herb will cave in. The immediate result is negligible but the long term result doesn't look good.

My confidence is that Herb will do what is right for Southwest.

The thing that should concern WN fans, though, is when you have a fan as loyal and defender as adamant as I have been.....and an employee expresses no concern at all when I talk about going over to the competition. It's one thing when a Southwest detractor says he or she is going over to the enemy. (as Herb told a long term whiner and complainer threatening to take his business elsewhere..."we'll miss you." It's something completely different when an ally, supporter, and long term WN fanatic talks about riding an airline he absolutely detests because he hates to see the bloodshed at his favorite company and watch the employees destroy it.

I would think true loyalty to SWA would compel you to stand by her if this truly is her hour of need. However, if it simply too painful for you to continue to give Southwest your business. I understand that. I want you to fly Southwest. I would be my pleasure to serve you.

And with that...like KC said..."I'm out." I've gone at this from every possible angle for months now. I've said my peace. In the end, I've got a life to lead and more and more of it seems to be taken up lately with "who said what about whom" on these forums and I think for me at least that needs to change. I've enjoyed the discourse, it's nice to see there is still intelligent "conversation" and debate to be had in this world. Time to move on. Travel Safely.

SWAFA30

 

[SWAFA30]

Oh, and FA30....for someone who has been around as long as you have....you ought to quit listening to the revisionist history. Herb never locked the mechanics out. Herb had absolutely nothing to do with the management and running of the airline when that took place. Putnam was the Pres/CEO then and he reluctantly did the lockout deal at the urging of every other officer. Herb's dabbling with the actual operations didn;t begin until the late late 70s/early 80s. For at least the first 8 1/2 yrs or so about all he did was lawyer.

I stand corrected. I appreciate the information. Thank You.

 

[hp_fa]

Fly:

You may be right, but I also think that UA also sent out messages post-filing that it was looking for an earlier exit from bankrutcy and then discarded that plan.

Also, didn't UA request more time for it's plan exclusivity period than the judge granted. I think he only granted until 6/30 and UA wanted more.

At any rate, thanks for responding.

 

[KCFlyer]

First grade math will tell you that even at the depths of the post 9/11 slump SWA was STILL MAKING MONEY. For the umpteenth time. Someone, anyone show me the facts of this unions raises taking away SWA's ability to stay competitive and I'm ready to listen.

YOu might want to take a look at an article in the WSJ a week or two ago. It was about Costco. Bottom line, one of the things that "investors" view as a negative about Costco is that they treat their people right. Maybe too right. And that has an impact on something called their "duty to the shareholder". It is indeed true that Southwest made money in the quarters following 9/11. I think what ELP is saying is that you should be thankful that Southwest choose to pull a "Costco" in those days...Imagine how pleased Wall Street might have been had Southwest made even MORE money than they did. Out of their "duty to shareholder value". And look at what the other airlines focus on "shareholder value" has gotten them.

 

[TDR1502C]

Any bets that this will go to a PEB?

 

[Nebbie Nuts!]

It would only be right if Thom McDaniel step aside too.

 

[KCFlyer]

It would only be right if Thom McDaniel step aside too.

I agree. Let him "consult" with the new lead negotiator (as Herb will do with Parker).

 

[orangeman]

Two posts copied from another forum:

1.

This is a brilliant move on the part of the company. There's no way Thom can demonize Herb like he did Parker. The other employees and his own will abandon him. This move is calculated to put the idea of closure in the minds of the FA's and that translates into yes votes in the bank. It wouldn't surprise me if it weren't scripted months ago.
Thom's smart move right now would be to ask to continue with Parker because he is going to get steamrolled by Herb.

The FA's are going to flock to whatever Herb presents. A small minority are going to claim that it is a worse deal than that already on the table but they are going to be drown out by the masses.

Granted they were only three, but our FA's in the van tonight had one strong concensus. "Now we can get this over with." They see this a quick resolution which subliminally has them voting yes in their minds before they've even seen anything. Exactly what the company intended all along. Parker's job is to play the Ghandi role of losing a battle to win the war, and he will be the one with the last laugh.



2.

Herb will sweeten the offer in some ostensibly significant manner while pulling something else out of the package. Thom should be prepared to "take this or take the street" because there aren't anymore cards for the company to play. IMHO, Thom had also better plan on making the call in the near term, because Herb won't dance with him long.

Thom's been in pretty safe territory until now, not much chance the company would declare an impasse. I'd say he was treading on very unstable ground from here out.

I think there is a greater chance that Thom will be replaced if an impasse is declared.

At the end of the 30 day cooling off period, a strike isn't automatic and an effective strike is far from guaranteed. There's a lot of single parent/two earner family/old school LUV FAs who aren't going to go the last mile, no matter what they've said up to this point. I should add that ala Continental, the company can dangle the hook of improved seniority to all who cross the line. That's going to be a big temptation to those junior FAs who have the feeling that the senior folks were screwing them all these years and it's payback time. Many will consider having the additional seniority to no longer commute to another base as too good of a deal to pass up.

What is automatic is that the company can impose its last offer. Sans strike, and in the case of job actions by individuals after that, the normal discipline procedures would be followed.

For SWA, the end of the issue may well be in sight.

BoeingGuy!
How long have you "not" been a WN F/A? How many F/A contract negotiations are you aware of? I will discuss 3 if you are so inclined. I have been a F/A for WN for almost 14 years! If you think that F/A's will flock to Herb...You are mistaken! Unlike myself, the largest % of F/A's are new hires! Many do not know or have ever seen Herb! To them, he is just another name that was associated with their substandard starting pay! Herb may be something new, yet time will tell if it leads to an agreement!

I will sign my post!
Chris

 

[spanky]

Orangeman,

Without Herb, you would have not ever had a job at Southwest. You are, without a doubt, a cancer within our airline. Thank God most flight attendants don't have your warped attitude. We may have to live with your types, but I sure wish you'd leave and be a cancer somewhere else!

 

[orangeman]

Orangeman,

Without Herb, you would have not ever had a job at Southwest. You are, without a doubt, a cancer within our airline. Thank God most flight attendants don't have your warped attitude. We may have to live with your types, but I sure wish you'd leave and be a cancer somewhere else!

Spanky,
How can you make a statement such as this re: my work record? I am "Cancer"? My "file" is filled with "at'aboy letters" from OUR customers!!! How dare you attack me without you knowing me and or my record! How much "face" time do you spend with those customers that help to pay our bills? "My Types"? Are you a member of my work group? Shame on you!!! Herb is a business man and I am aware of this! If you can't speak about me or my workgroup, KEEP QUIET!!! Do Not Call Me a Cancer...You do not know me! If you choose to battle with other workgroups ie: mine, email me personnaly. I can't wait to see you online! I have met and spoken with Herb 5 times! And You?
Chris Knight
PHX F/A #15085

 

[NewHampshire Black Bears]

I too think that ol' Herb will work this out, and soon.

BUT,

Make NO mistake about it !!!

ANYBODY(EVEN south of the mason/dixon line), who joins a union, And then RAISES their hand and takes an oath, and CROSSES A PICKET LINE, "IS A ****ING SCAB" !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

There is NO middle ground here "kiddies"

You are,

A. a (sworn) Union Person,
or
B. You are a "SCAB" !!!!!!!!!!!!!


Think about it !

NH/BB's

 

[mweiss]

It's a funny thing about unions. Both they and their members' employers view the union members as commodities. By design. It tends to push everyone toward mediocrity, and more importantly stifles independent thought.

That makes the "scab" concept is a double-edged sword.

 

[WNrforlife]

I don't think that Herb is going to be able to accomplish much in swaying the minds of the F/A's. The one's that I know and have spoken with seem to have their minds set on the increases that Jim wouldn't agree to.

 

[swflyer]

Already, a different tone was heard ringing throughout the land of LUV..........

04-26-04 | A Note from Herb:
To give future Flight Attendant negotiations an opportunity to succeed, please refrain from speculating or commenting on the progress of the talks. Your support of this quiet period is crucial as we move forward in negotiations. As always, we appreciate your continued efforts to maintaining respect and civility, which are hallmarks of our Southwest Culture.