Official: AMR Bankrupt
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eolesen
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- Jul 23, 2003
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Try to remember that USAir's bankruptcy timeline was under the "take as much time as you need to come up with a restructuring plan" days.
AMR's got a much more compressed timeline, which works more to their benefit than to yours. I don't think waiting 45-60 days and then going for another 60-90 days is going to happen with AMR. They're also in a situation where there have been recent TA's reached under Section 6.
Yes, I know... Conventional wisdom says that all the Section 6 negotiations and the TA's reached mean nothing in S1113.
Each bankruptcy filing tends to shape how the subsequent ones are handled... when you don't have a lot of case law to fall back on, a judge might be willing to give a little more latitude than expected.
Try to remember that the new law has has never been tested under a condition where an airline walks into court and says "we've spent four years negotiating in what we consider good-faith, including Federally mediation -- how much more 'good faith' can we afford to extend?"
With the more aggressive timelines mandated by the 2005 change, it's not out of the question for the S1113 timeline to also be more aggressive.
AMR's got a much more compressed timeline, which works more to their benefit than to yours. I don't think waiting 45-60 days and then going for another 60-90 days is going to happen with AMR. They're also in a situation where there have been recent TA's reached under Section 6.
Yes, I know... Conventional wisdom says that all the Section 6 negotiations and the TA's reached mean nothing in S1113.
Each bankruptcy filing tends to shape how the subsequent ones are handled... when you don't have a lot of case law to fall back on, a judge might be willing to give a little more latitude than expected.
Try to remember that the new law has has never been tested under a condition where an airline walks into court and says "we've spent four years negotiating in what we consider good-faith, including Federally mediation -- how much more 'good faith' can we afford to extend?"
With the more aggressive timelines mandated by the 2005 change, it's not out of the question for the S1113 timeline to also be more aggressive.
TWU informer
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- Nov 4, 2003
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What amazes the hell out of me that even after all the available information on the Chapter 11 process, there are still those that believe "who" represents the line AMT matters, or who represents overhaul matters. They even still argue as if their opinions still matter in this process.
No freakin wonder we ended up in this situation. The way I see it AA offered up a way for us to keep working and leave with our pensions via attrition, and the cost of restructuring was of very little harm to current employees. But the bad ass boys trying to save the profession sunk that option. Now they try to justify that ignorance by claiming AA would have filed anyway. What is really sad is I have very little trust in management, but I have less trust in a bunch hard core idiots who think everyone is against them and their story and their defined enemy changes depending on the actions of others. That is NOT leadership my friends, that is anarchy and stupid at best.
No freakin wonder we ended up in this situation. The way I see it AA offered up a way for us to keep working and leave with our pensions via attrition, and the cost of restructuring was of very little harm to current employees. But the bad ass boys trying to save the profession sunk that option. Now they try to justify that ignorance by claiming AA would have filed anyway. What is really sad is I have very little trust in management, but I have less trust in a bunch hard core idiots who think everyone is against them and their story and their defined enemy changes depending on the actions of others. That is NOT leadership my friends, that is anarchy and stupid at best.
What amazes me is that you think that AA would not have filed if we had bought that bad of crap.
MCI transplant
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- Jun 4, 2003
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<_< ----- O.K. informer! You've vented your frustrations!------ So what do you suggest? You don't trust management, or your Union! What are you going to do about it? As you well know, bitching about it on this forum ain't going to do much good! -------- "Hind sight is 20/20!" Today is a different day!------- Deal with it!!!!
enough already
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- Jan 8, 2003
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At this point we're simply along for the ride.....
TWU informer
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You have no proof AA would have filed and still use it as an excuse to keep from admitting your ignorance. And what difference would it have made if they did?
Other than at least show we are not stupid ass whiners? And you would have spent your signing bonus and be making higher crew chief pay.
You sit and read your USAToday for a cuople of hours every damn day, and screw off in other ways the rest of the day and so that gives you more time to #### the loudest while pretending to know it all. I know you have personally attacked my skill group as if we are lower than you which is a skill group that I happen to be proud to belong to. Nobody I know in your crew has an ounce of respect for you. Your Supervisor talks about you behind your back as if you need different medication and how ignorant you are. AA has to have two Crew Chiefs in your area for a crew half the size of most. You could have killed fellow employees with your past screwups.
And you think I care what you think? LOL
And you think you deserve more. I think you are indeed one of those that is lucky to have a job...brother.
You can hide behind your alias with others but not me...
Get to F'ing work and earn your way and stop acting as if you are entitled to continue to screw a company and a profession into the ground !!!
You cannot handle the truth so you throw out your one line post of ignorance in response. How does that amaze you?
TWU informer
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Is that how you folks at TWA handled it?
And look at you and that Ariline now. YAHOO
I think I will take my advice from someone else thank you. There is nothing left to suggest, we have been check mated. That was my point that you must have missed.
Could not have said it better myself.
Kind of makes you wonder whether total cooperation by the represented workforce could have averted this bankruptcy filing. What if, instead of starting out with the "restore and more" sloganeering, the represented employees had negotiated small wage increases in 2008, in exchange for the productivity/scope improvements the company wanted? The pilots started with a 50% demand, then lowered it to a 30% demand, which the company had no intention of ever agreeing to. Dunno what the APFA was demanding, since it won't even tell its membership what it was asking for. Arpey's biggest blunder may not have been the failure to file Ch 11 in 2003; his biggest mistake may have been in not filing in late 2008 or early 2009 once it became apparent that the unions' demands far exceeded anything he was willing to pay. I think there's plenty of blame on both sides. AA should have told the represented employees in 2008 that failure to agree to very modest wage increases plus productivity gains would equal an immediate Ch 11. Instead, they dragged out the negotiations endlessly, probably giving false hope to some employees that their ship would eventually come in (in the form of large raises and retro).
You've still got union leaders/negotiators who think that the current bankruptcy is a "ploy" and a "sham" and that AA is not in any financial trouble.
You've still got union leaders/negotiators who think that the current bankruptcy is a "ploy" and a "sham" and that AA is not in any financial trouble.
MCI transplant
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- Jun 4, 2003
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<_< ------ Are you through crying about it? How did us folks at TWA handel it? I'll tell you how! We didn't have the "Good Life" you enjoy there in TUL! We were on the edge of going under for years, and we all knew it! We all, or at least most of us, had other things working for us besides TWA. Some had farms, others were building houses on the side, others repaired cars. Knowing, someday that might be their only income! Damn it! You don't cry about the hand dealt you! You deal with it! You do whatever it takes to put food on the table, and cloths on your children! ------- "Look at me"? Oh, I didn't do too bad! I've built my own home in the foothills of Southern Calif., owned rental properties. Moved my family Kansas City, where i now have a nice home, am retired, with enough money in the bank, and invested, to keep my wife and myself "comfortable".--------- I've got a daughter and her family, with three grandchildren, here in Mo. I've got a second home down in the Virgin Islands, where my Son and his family live, with two more grandchildren.------- Oh I'm doing O.K. thanks in part to TWA, and yes, AA! ----- Yea! YAHOO!
- Aug 20, 2002
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WOW!
TWU informer
Veteran
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All of that and yet your life has an empty spot that leads you to this bulletin board to defend the same type of ignorant leaders that lead to destruction of TWA.
Go live your life and stop destroying mine. Just because you were dealt a difficult hand doesn't mean that you must insure I have to deal with one also.
I am sorry you had leaders that took you off the cliff on more than one instance. If you are so F'ing happy with your outcome then why linger in this crap hole?
Yeah I will say it too
WOW
So, are you working under and imposed agreement or one that was voted in by the members at USAIR?
Also didn't you guys receive big raises prior to BK? We have not had any increases in three years and that's on top of a 25% cut.
That's really the unions question, by the way UAL has a TA that they are voting on Dec 29, so the only ones left below us is USAIR and they have been in mediation since July.
