Official: AMR Bankrupt

[FWAAA]

Don't you hammer me! I am referring to what part of the equation is pushing the labor cost over the top? I do not believe it is the mechanic wage and benefit scenario.....

I agree that AA's problems are not directly attribtutable to the wages and benefits of AA's line mechanics, whose hourly rate is on the low side of what line mechanics are paid by freight and passenger airlines.

That leaves the other part of the operation, the side that most other airlines have outsourced to various facilities in the USA plus various foreign countries.

When the history books are written, IMO, Arpey's reluctance to file for bankruptcy protection will be ridiculed as allowing emotions to win over the numbers and his devotion to inhouse maintenance will also be criticized as an emotional decision that ignored the numbers. Numbers people will ask "why the hell didn't AA do what so many other airlines like UA and US and NW did?"

 

[WorldTraveler]

very well said, SWAMT, and it is precisely because AA is now the last in the line that they can learn from others and "improve".. it's pattern bargaining in reverse.
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FWAAA, I read exactly what you wrote... but my question still remains how many of those options were actually exercised....Yes, if they waited 4 years after the pay cuts, they would have recouped the first years worth of cuts... but again, that is not what the creditors - which now include the employees now - would have done.
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Buck,
the reason why there are clear costs for some groups like pilots and mechanics but not for other groups is because the DOT requires reporting in such a way that some groups can be clearly seen... thus it isn't possible to make the same comparisons using DOT data for some labor groups.. .and that is why the company does have an advantage in the knowledge they have for those areas. The choice is to take what we can get good info for or get none of it accurately.
There are other sources of data and there is some parsing that can be done by comparing different data sources but it won't be an apples to apples comparison for all labor groups.
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I believe it is accurate that history will not look kindly on Arpey's commitment to ideas which kept AA out of BK. If he had succeeded he would have been hailed as a hero - and that is always the risk... but business success is not measured by commitment to ideals (unfortunately) but by success w/ numbers above all else.
If labor had known that Arpey was willing to walk away from his job rather than file, I suspect they would have been willing to accept concessions instead of wait for BK....I am sure he could have convinced the board and creditors that the concessions he received was sufficient - and it probably could have been enough to put AA back in line at least with UA in terms of costs; might not have gotten AA down to DL or WN's costs but it could have substantially changed things.
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That is water under the bridge now but if everyone really knew eacch other's position, the filing probably would not have happened.

 

[TWU informer]

Now that over 10 days have passed, and my emotions about this Chapter 11 filing have calmed, I went back and watched this video:

Difficult Decision

The first time I watched this I came away with a different opinion than after watching it today.

Today, I see that Horton could well be the perfect man to turn this company around. Just as with Crandall, the Unions will not always like the position of this man, but at least he appears not only more intelligent than the last two (Carty/Arpey), but he also appears ready to make the decisions needed to become the leader once again.

If you have gotten over your fear and anger about the BK Filing, now go back and view some of the information that was presented following the filing.

Good Luck to Everyone, Management and Union in turning this company around for the better!
Time to drop what has happened in the past and start a new.

 

[1AA]

Now that over 10 days have passed, and my emotions about this Chapter 11 filing have calmed, I went back and watched this video:

Difficult Decision

The first time I watched this I came away with a different opinion than after watching it today.

Today, I see that Horton could well be the perfect man to turn this company around. Just as with Crandall, the Unions will not always like the position of this man, but at least he appears not only more intelligent than the last two (Carty/Arpey), but he also appears ready to make the decisions needed to become the leader once again.

If you have gotten over your fear and anger about the BK Filing, now go back and view some of the information that was presented following the filing.

Good Luck to Everyone, Management and Union in turning this company around for the better!
Time to drop what has happened in the past and start a new.

The company has NEW leadership to turn things around.

BUT

The TWU International and it's officers are still in place with no plans to change their
plans around.

Is the TWU really going to change things around for a better American Airlines?
My opinion and experience with the TWU says NO.

 

[TWU informer]

The company has NEW leadership to turn things around.

BUT

The TWU International and it's officers are still in place with no plans to change their
plans around.

Is the TWU really going to change things around for a better American Airlines?
My opinion and experience with the TWU says NO.

The TWU is going to have zero say in this in the end.

We are ALL going to get what the company wants to give us...period.

It has really been that way for my tenure at AA, but the TWU has smoked screened this truth well.
TWU IS IRRELEVANT IN THIS PROCESS

My guess is you will be given the AA 1113(c proposal with less than 30 days to ratify. Fail to ratify and you will face worse.

 

[Buck]

It is my understanding that the union cannot be replaced in bankruptcy as everything is status quo, so might as well settle down and ride this out.

Is the TWU really going to change things around for a better American Airlines?
My opinion and experience with the TWU says NO.

My experience tells me that above all else the revenue stream must be maintained. I am sure that the TWU will ensure that.

"Once more unto the breach"

 

[Birdman]

The TWU is going to have zero say in this in the end.

We are ALL going to get what the company wants to give us...period.

It has really been that way for my tenure at AA, but the TWU has smoked screened this truth well.
TWU IS IRRELEVANT IN THIS PROCESS

My guess is you will be given the AA 1113(c proposal with less than 30 days to ratify. Fail to ratify and you will face worse.

The Dec. 5th mis-Informer stated that one of the conditions as a precursor to contract termination was "the debtor would negotiate in good faith". The membership would be very disappointed to hear the TWU did not hold the debtor accountAAble.

 

[Buck]

The Dec. 5th mis-Informer stated that one of the conditions as a precursor to contract termination was "the debtor would negotiate in good faith". The membership would be very disappointed to hear the TWU did not hold the debtor accountAAble.

Accountability, is that when the TWU holds to it's seperate negotiations for M&R? I guess that you do not have to be held to dutifully representating your members in the middle of a Status Quo bankruptcy.

 

[Buck]

Is the TWU still suporting Occupy Wall Street now that we are in bankruptcy? OWS is now going to shutdown the West Coast Ports which are union jobs. I hope that the TWU uses all of it's resources to work on the bankruptcy.

 

[BoeingBoy]

The Dec. 5th mis-Informer stated that one of the conditions as a precursor to contract termination was "the debtor would negotiate in good faith".

That is correct. However, it does NOT mean that the company can't go to the judge if the union doesn't agree with the company's final offer. Like I said in one of these threads, the company negotiates with a pen in one hand and a gun (the judge) in the other - the pen for the union to use to sign the agreement or the gun to use if the union doesn't agree.

Jim

 

[jimntx]

The Dec. 5th mis-Informer stated that one of the conditions as a precursor to contract termination was "the debtor would negotiate in good faith". The membership would be very disappointed to hear the TWU did not hold the debtor accountAAble.

To paraphrase President Clinton, "Define good faith." The company can go to the judge and say, "In good faith, we offered them minimum wage, $.50/hr raise after the first 5 years, no paid sick leave and no paid vacation. They rejected our generous offer." All they have to do is convince the judge.

 

[paul1]

To paraphrase President Clinton, "Define good faith." The company can go to the judge and say, "In good faith, we offered them minimum wage, $.50/hr raise after the first 5 years, no paid sick leave and no paid vacation. They rejected our generous offer." All they have to do is convince the judge.
[/qu
at some point people will just leave, hopefully we don't get to that breaking point. In maint according to AA own website we are number 3 from the bottom and most likely will be 2nd from the bottom when UA maint. votes on there T/A Dec. 29th

 

[odie01]

Don't remember seeing this on the forum, sorry if it's a repeat.


Labor Negotiations

Added on 12/09/2011Will the unions have a voice in the next contract? Will employees have a voice in the chapter 11 process?
We will negotiate with the unions, and independent employees will have a voice in the process. We will notify all of our unions when we have new proposals to share that reflect our changed circumstances.

Added on 12/09/2011Is a contract going to be imposed?
Bankruptcy judges do not impose contracts. They have the authority to grant requests to reject contracts, but contract rejection is not our preference. We intend on working with each of our unions to negotiate new consensual agreements that will allow American and American Eagle to be more competitive and financially secure.

Added on 12/09/2011 Is the contract process mediated?
The Chapter 11 process for labor contract changes is different from the traditional bargaining process under the Railway Labor Act. The process is under the jurisdiction of the Bankruptcy Court and does not include mediation.

Added on 12/09/2011What happens if a new contract isn't achieved?
The company can impose new work rules with approval of the court. However, the company would continue to bargain with its unions to reach an agreement.

Added on 12/09/2011 What about a Presidential Emergency Board?
The Chapter 11 process for Labor contract changes does not include provisions for a Presidential Emergency board. In the event that the Court authorizes contract rejection, that decision is final unless appealed to a higher court.

Have the unions been notified/involved in the process?
We have been keeping APA, APFA and the TWU apprised of the Company's financial circumstances through regular briefings. Union leaders have been notified of the filing and will be provided copies of the filing documents. Similarly, American Eagle routinely updates its unions - ALPA, AFA and the TWU - about the financial state of the Company and have also notified them of the filing.

Were American's unions given an option to help the Company restructure outside of Chapter 11, as was done in 2003?
American has been engaged in talks with all of our unions over a long period of time to identify mutually beneficial solutions that address both employees' interests and the Company's competitive challenges. While it was a difficult decision to file for Chapter 11, we believe that it is the necessary and the right path for us to take - and take now. We intend to become a more efficient, financially stronger, and competitive airline. We are committed to actively pursuing that goal and restoring our Company to future prosperity.

Top of Page

What happens to American's TWU Fleet Service and Dispatch tentative agreements?
In light of the changed circumstances resulting from the Chapter 11 filing, American will not proceed with finalizing the tentative agreements with the TWU Fleet Service Clerk & Ground Services and Dispatchers workgroups. We are committed to negotiating new cost-effective agreements with the TWU.

Is American's last Pilot proposal still valid if the APA decided to accept it as a tentative agreement?
In light of the changed circumstances resulting from the Chapter 11 filing and given American's need to achieve a more competitive cost structure, it is likely changes will be necessary. We are committed to negotiating a new cost-effective agreement with APA.

Is American's last proposal to the APFA, made in January, still valid if the union chose to accept?
In light of the changed circumstances resulting from the Chapter 11 filing and given American's need to achieve a more competitive cost structure, it is likely changes will be necessary. We are committed to negotiating a new cost-effective agreement with APFA.

Is American's last proposal to the TWU Mechanics and Related group still valid if the union chose to accept?
In light of the changed circumstances resulting from the Chapter 11 filing and given American's need to achieve a more competitive cost structure, it is likely changes will be necessary. We are committed to negotiating a new cost-effective agreement with TWU.

Top of Page

Is American Eagle's tentative agreement with ALPA still valid?
In light of the changed circumstances resulting from the Chapter 11 filing and the uncertainty of the amount of flying American will require from Eagle in the future, American Eagle will not proceed with finalizing the tentative agreement with ALPA.

Is American still negotiating with its unions? What about American Eagle?
American and American Eagle have been engaged in talks with all of our unions over a long period of time to identify mutually beneficial solutions that address both employees' interests and the Company's competitive challenges. While it was a difficult decision to file for Chapter 11, we believe it is the necessary and right path for us to take - and take now. We intend to become a more efficient, financially stronger, and competitive airline. American and American Eagle have told the leaders of each of our unions that we plan to notify them when we have new proposals to share with them that reflect our changed circumstances and begin the collective bargaining process under Chapter 11.

Will independent employee groups have a say in the restructuring process?
Yes. Given our need to achieve a more competitive cost structure, it is likely changes will be necessary. Our independent employees, including agents, representatives, planners, support staff and management employees, will have a voice in the restructuring process and will have the opportunity to provide ideas and input on the best ways for their workgroups to become more competitive.

What is the role of the National Mediation Board (NMB) in the restructuring process?
The traditional bargaining process under the Railway Labor Act can be very long and drawn-out. In Chapter 11, that traditional process is replaced by special procedures which set time limits. We expect to continue to work cooperatively with the NMB throughout the process.

 

[700UW]

Once the judge abrogates and then imposes the company's final offer, there is no negotiations after.

I was on the NC for the IAM M&R at US, once its imposed its done.

 

[Buster CRC]

Once the judge abrogates and then imposes the company's final offer, there is no negotiations after.

I was on the NC for the IAM M&R at US, once its imposed its done.

What was your Timeline for negotiations. Like how long after they filed did y'all start the negotiations till you got it imposed?