Delta Air Lines to Build Heavy Maintenance Facility in Queretaro, Mexico

[Kev3188]

upset. Hardlly.
Tired of you being unable to engage in a conversation without calling me an F** idiot? You bet.

By all means show a post where I've ever written that. Anyone'll do. Take your time.

Maybe it's no surprise that doors that could have allowed you to be an agent of change have been shut in your face.

Working for change at any company is difficult. Working toward it at a place where groupthink rules, and dissenting opinion is seen as a threat is an even tougher climb.

Because I managed to understand the environment in which I live and work w/in those boundaries and CONSTRUCTIVELY implement change HARDLY means I acquiesce to the status quo.

That's an excellent rationalization. Go with it.

… maybe you should ask Anderson why NW did not choose to close the freighter operation and left the dirty work to DL?

Based on his track record, he doesn't like dirty work. He prefers playing the good cop.

Delta pilot pay rates and details on their compensation can be found here. Any DL employee can look at their salaries relative to the pilots if they wish.
http://www.airlinepi...gacy/delta.html

Pilots got raises because they control scope and not any other group. DL needed more large RJs and the pilots agreed to give it to DL.

The pilots *negotiated* a 13% raise right off the bat, with multiple 3% ones in subsequent years. They also got a huge boost to their 401k's.

Every other group got 4% (if TOS), or 2%, and zero change to their 401k.

You said you didn’t want to be a pilot. Don’t expect pilot pay or pay raises if you don’t want to do the job.

That's right; I don't. Or an F/A, or an AMT, etc. Not the point. You repeatedly post about raises being doled out, and like to paint this idea of us all rolling around in piles of cash. I'm merely pointing out the value of negotiating vs. begging. You're numbers guy, so I figured you'd understand that.

I’ve posted the average compensation data from the MIT airline data project.
Whatever TOS was, DL FAs managed to bring home better compensation at the end of the day.

Simply not true- all the more so if total compensation is the metric used. Using the 1/13 TOS base rate for an FA (PMNW), they will make all of .76/more per hour than they did 7 years ago. While technically a larger sum of money, it's hardly the brilliant post-BK recovery you so enjoy talking about, and that does't even touch on things like increased insurance rates, short crew pay, monthly guarantees, and so on that directly affect one's bottom line.

At the end of the day, I think you want to tell a good news story about Ma DL. That's nice, but I'm guessing that people posting inconvenient truths that run counter to that narrative is what you find really vexing.

Like I said earlier; nice to see the real WT shine through, though.

 

[WorldTraveler]

All I want is to tell the TRUE story - and to do in a conversation where each side can listen to and respond to the other side.

I can deal with the hard facts.. and opinions... But when facts clearly counter opinions, then it isn't hard to side with what has been documented.

Most of the times you get it.... but other times, no. Whether you use the term "F... idiot" or not, the sentiment comes thru loud and clear in the words you do write.

You and I obviously enjoy the debate here.... rephrasing what I have said to come up w/ a "shitty" attitude accomplishes nothing good for either of us.

Average compensation is the best metric to show what happens in real life. All of the scales in the world don't explain what people actually bring home. For your work group and maintenance, DOT stats include multiple workgroups but for pilots and FAs, DOT is quite accurate about what the average employee in that workgroup actually makes.

The pilots still could not have negotiated something the company did not believe was market. AA and UA pilots are also negotiating but they haven't had near as much success... apparently DL's perception of market worth is a lot different than theirs - or DL's union is a whole lot more effective.

Like it or not, pilot unions hold the key to scope at US airlines. Everyone else is just along for the ride.

Plenty of people with brains and a set have managed to implement change at DL... the key is being able to work w/in the framework that exists.

 

[Kev3188]

All I want is to tell the TRUE story

Great. Then start telling it. ALL of it.

Most of the times you get it.... whether you use the term "F... idiot" or not, the sentiment comes thru loud and clear in the words you do write.

Translation: "You're right Kevin; you never said that."

Average compensation is the best metric to show what happens in real life. All of the scales in the world don't explain what people actually bring home.

The F/A example I used shows that what they bring home today is less now than what it was in '05, and the post BK recovery you're so quick to want to tout is not all that it seems.

But hey, as part of the structural initiatives they discussed on the call, maybe they'll get a bunch of the red out after all, and you can go back to the DL you once knew and loved...

 

[southwind]

Because they pay more?

Yeah! That's it !

I guess that's too bad for them. They didn't have an arbitrator rule that their work is the same.

So your saying your local Doc should make the same as the Doctor down the street performing open heart surgery....................right ? Guess thats ok if you don't mind paying a higher fee when you visit said local Doc !

BTW, how have arbitrators helped all the union employee's, who's company have used the BK process ?

 

[southwind]

That's because as far as you know, the world begins and ends at the TOC. Believe it or not, there are other workgroups besides Tech Ops.

So what Major "Passenger" carrying airlines are missing from the ramp's "Industry Standard" pay scale ?

Thank you for the kind words!

That might be appealing, but right now I think the focus needs to be (re)building labor from the ground up, as opposed to from the top down. It's the more difficult way, but the potential ROI is much greater, as it seems to resonate more with everyone, and fosters a much greater feeling of engagement.

Not saying this particular idea is bad, but sure sounds a lot like Obama's "Trickle-Up Poverty" !

 

[Kev3188]

Not only is it "not bad," it's really the only effective way forward, IMO...

 

[Kev3188]

So what Major "Passenger" carrying airlines are missing from the ramp's "Industry Standard" pay scale ?

AS to start...

IMO, FL didn't need to be included for the '13 chart, given their merger with WN. If they really needed someone else on there, B6 would've been an okay choice.

For the F/A's, AS & HA should be included.

Won't happen, but it'd also be nice to see a graphic for both TOS, and the start and middle tiers as well, as that would tell more of the story....

 

[737823]

Thank you for the kind words!

That might be appealing, but right now I think the focus needs to be (re)building labor from the ground up, as opposed to from the top down. It's the more difficult way, but the potential ROI is much greater, as it seems to resonate more with everyone, and fosters a much greater feeling of engagement.

That's good you have a vision and understand the challenges ahead. When you say build from on the ground up, that starts with the workers that the unions aspire to represent. As Bob has posted countless times, its hard to sell people on the value of the union when your non-union peers (jetBlue in the case of AA line mechanics) have substantially greater compensation, work rules, and other benefits. It seems to me that workers also need to feel apart of and connected to the union and see it as something more than just a payroll deduction and should get involved in the negotiations and hold their leadership accountable. To Bob's other point though at much like executives in this country, union leaders enjoy salaries 10-25x that of their rank and file along with considerable perks and lose touch with their members and are unwilling to engage in strikes or job action that could compromise their cushy positions. And I'll end by saying while I still don't see the value of representation, I respect that you do and have learned from the experiences and perspectives you have provided.

Josh

 

[WorldTraveler]

Translation: "You're right Kevin; you never said that."

a red card is a red card, and you know it.
You were called on the carpet because you demonstrated that you can’t keep your cool and focus on the subject under pressure…. And it doesn’t just extend to this forum….and you wonder why you have been marginalized and unable to implement the change that you very much could do if you were able to get along w/ people.

Great. Then start telling it. ALL of it.

I’m happy to allow the whole truth to be told and you can indeed be a part of painting the whole picture… but refusing to accept data on a topic where data really does tell the story because you don’t like the story the data says only further marginalizes you as an advocate for your cause

But hey, as part of the structural initiatives they discussed on the call, maybe they'll get a bunch of the red out after all, and you can go back to the DL you once knew and loved...

I’d far rather that the former RED individuals who haven’t done so figure out how to succeed and work in the system that they have been given, even if it isn’t what they asked for.
There are plenty of PMNW people who have moved up and into the ranks of DL… the notion that DL has isolated and cut off PMNW people because they are RED is merely an excuse from those who haven’t demonstrated that they know how to succeed and work in the system they have been given.

But sometimes you do need to use a little Visine to contain the problem.

But let’s carry on with the facts….

AS to start...

But wait… didn’t AS jump into a bruising fight w/ its rampers that resulted in massive outsourcing of their ramp? Doesn’t AS – with the IAM’s approval – have RRs, the very program you decry at DL?

In fact, DL has TWICE the percentage of mainline ramp workers that AS has and DL has no ramp union.
DL’s ramp workforce is larger than AS’ entire mainline labor force but that is another discussion.

You and Dawg like to point to the TOS at other carriers while failing to note the much lower percentage of the total workforce in those groups at those other airlines compared to DL which means you either 1. Are really just after yourself (since both of you are TOS) or 2. You expect to have the best of everything and you don’t understand that you can’t have it all, and can’t figure out how to find solutions that really represent the majority and not a privileged few.

IMO, FL didn't need to be included for the '13 chart, given their merger with WN. If they really needed someone else on there, B6 would've been an okay choice.

Won't happen, but it'd also be nice to see a graphic for both TOS, and the start and middle tiers as well, as that would tell more of the story....

FL might not be in your world but their largest workforce is at the same airport as DL’s.

The F/A example I used shows that what they bring home today is less now than what it was in '05, and the post BK recovery you're so quick to want to tout is not all that it seems.

Or you could accept that average compensation reflects what people really bring home, something you seem to want to throw in as a goal unless the data actually shows that data doesn't really help your cause as the MIT data does.
DL FAs had the highest average salary among the network in 2011, and DL has added far more FAs to its ranks over the past few years, meaning many DL FAs have lower salaries that are characteristic of new hire airline workers.

Glad you mentioned that NW FAs didn’t recover from the cuts made in BK… because the data does show that NW FA average salaries fell 27% in BK compared to 8% for DL FAs, one of the lowest average salary cuts for FAs among the legacy carrier FA groups in BK.

Apparently NOT having a union helped DL FAs retain their pay FAR BETTER than what having unions did for FAs at other airlines… and DL FAs have regained more pay since BK than any other legacy airline FA group.

But those are the uncomfortably true numbers that you have to admit DO tell why DL employees have no desire to be sucked into a labor-mgmt model that has resulted in bigger cuts in both pay and employee numbers than DL employees who supposedly have no protection.

That's good you have a vision and understand the challenges ahead. When you say build from on the ground up, that starts with the workers that the unions aspire to represent. As Bob has posted countless times, its hard to sell people on the value of the union when your non-union peers (jetBlue in the case of AA line mechanics) have substantially greater compensation, work rules, and other benefits. It seems to me that workers also need to feel apart of and connected to the union and see it as something more than just a payroll deduction and should get involved in the negotiations and hold their leadership accountable. To Bob's other point though at much like executives in this country, union leaders enjoy salaries 10-25x that of their rank and file along with considerable perks and lose touch with their members and are unwilling to engage in strikes or job action that could compromise their cushy positions. And I'll end by saying while I still don't see the value of representation, I respect that you do and have learned from the experiences and perspectives you have provided.

Josh

I challenged Kevin shortly after the merger was announced to use his considerable energies and talents to contribute to the new DL. DL mgmt gave Kevin opportunities to demonstrate whether he could work as a leader w/in their system but he fought back against the structure DL had established and has been marginalized since. People have come around Kev to help him improve his skills and abilities that would make him more marketable in any job market, but he pushed back and said he would rather pursue the strategy of confrontation within DL that his peers consistently say they want nothing to do with….
Someone may have all the skills and abilities in the world but if they can’t learn to work w/in the structure in which they have chosen to exist, they are rendered powerless – or have the choice of working independently where they need not interact w/ others.
Kev is a smart guy but four years after the merger – and even longer since he started posting against the evil enterprise that is DL – it is time for him to either prove that he is capable of doing something about the world in which he finds himself and doesn’t like or figure out how to work in that system and succeed.
By failing to do either, he is becoming increasingly marginalized and less able to make the contribution that he is capable of making.
Life allows u-turns and corrections. Now would be as good of a time as any for Kev to re-evaulate, retool, and redirect his efforts to make a positive impact - and work with the people who really would be more than happy to see him succeed at what matters to him.

 

[700UW]

The IAM didnt not approve of the outsourcing that took place in SEA, took it to arbitration and won.

http://seattletimes....8_alaska08.html

Who the heck do you think you are?

You challenged Kevin, you got some gaul.

You dont know Kevin, you dont work with him, something is rotten in Denmark, you spend way too much time on these boards to claim you dont work for DL anymore.

 

[WorldTraveler]

Yet AS has just 700 ramp workers (that's from the AS' 10K, Kevin) out of less than 10,000 total AS mainline employees compared to over 10,500 ramp workers that participated in DL's ramp vote for half the percentage of mainline ramp workers at AS compared to DL.

AS won when it comes to gaining a much smaller percentage of unionized FT ramp workers - and theunion has not regained those jobs.

Another loss for the confrontational labor-mgmt model which even one of the best run legacy airlines in the US challenged w/ ease - and outside of BK to boot.

 

[Kev3188]

That's good you have a vision and understand the challenges ahead. When you say build from on the ground up, that starts with the workers that the unions aspire to represent. As Bob has posted countless times, its hard to sell people on the value of the union when your non-union peers (jetBlue in the case of AA line mechanics) have substantially greater compensation, work rules, and other benefits. It seems to me that workers also need to feel apart of and connected to the union and see it as something more than just a payroll deduction and should get involved in the negotiations and hold their leadership accountable. To Bob's other point though at much like executives in this country, union leaders enjoy salaries 10-25x that of their rank and file along with considerable perks and lose touch with their members and are unwilling to engage in strikes or job action that could compromise their cushy positions. And I'll end by saying while I still don't see the value of representation, I respect that you do and have learned from the experiences and perspectives you have provided.

Josh

The TWU at AA is a prime example of what has gone wrong with organized labor, and offers an easy compare/contrast of what needs to be changed. Even assuming that the posts are here represent a tea-in-the-ocean sampling of AA employees, it's clear that they are absolutely disenfranchised.

With regards to GC pay, I can tell you that in my district, the highest salary was ~ 2.5x times that of someone on the floor- and that included expense reimbursements (they are shown together on an LM2 form).

I don't disagree that the pay structure needs to be changed on a systemic level (this is one thing AMFA does very well compared to other unions, BTW). That said, I can say that our GC's earned every nickel. I certainly wouldn't want to take on the work load they had for what they were making...

 

[700UW]

Confrontational?

Take of your rose colored anti-union glasses, AS started the fight, not the IAM.

 

[Kev3188]

But sometimes you do need to use a little Visine to contain the problem.

Excellent. Not as good as yesterday's comment, but still honestly refreshing.

But wait… didn’t AS jump into a bruising fight w/ its rampers that resulted in massive outsourcing of their ramp?

There was no "bruising fight" to jump into. AS engaged in bad faith negotiating. The IAM eventually won a settlement for all affected workers. That recourse wouldn't have been available to a non-contract group. Pyrrhic victory? Maybe, but at least they got something.

Doesn’t AS – with the IAM’s approval – have RRs, the very program you decry at DL?

AFAIK, no. You're likely thinking of HA, and the language in their latest T/A.

You and Dawg like to point to the TOS at other carriers while failing to note the much lower percentage of the total workforce in those groups at those other airlines compared to DL which means you either 1. Are really just after yourself (since both of you are TOS) or 2. You expect to have the best of everything and you don’t understand that you can’t have it all, and can’t figure out how to find solutions that really represent the majority and not a privileged few.

What it means is that the differences between what DL pays at the lower tiers compared to other carriers tells a different story than a chart showing TOS. Not everyone here is topped out, so a chart comparing, say, 1st & 5th year rates would be nice.

Glad you mentioned that NW FAs didn’t recover from the cuts made in BK… because the data does show that NW FA average salaries fell 27% in BK compared to 8% for DL FAs, one of the lowest average salary cuts for FAs among the legacy carrier FA groups in BK.

Are we comparing post-BK gains, or cuts during BK? You've talked about post-BK gains repeatedly, so that's what I addressed.

I see you've moved on to the tactic of othering with your repeated use of the word "marginalized." That's nice, but inaccurate. You can think of me as some sort of outsider if you wish, though. Perhaps it's more comforting than the thought of someone with a very different worldview than you actively working for a change at your alma mater?

 

[737823]

But wait… didn’t AS jump into a bruising fight w/ its rampers that resulted in massive outsourcing of their ramp? Doesn’t AS – with the IAM’s approval – have RRs, the very program you decry at DL?

AS may not directly employ RRs but remember they have DL handling many of their flights even stations with multiple departures. Here in BOS we have 3x daily AS all handled by DL (including RRs presumably). But yes, HA did and Kev recognizes that but just because it is new language doesn't change the fact. AS also has QX handling some cities on the west coast too.

Keep in mind many of the UA hubs have Express handling outsourced. UAX has grown significantly over the years, take a trip to a UA hub and you will see mainline departures are few and far between and significantly more UAX flying. At ORD for example, UAX used to be in Terminal 2/Concourse F and has since grown to Concourse B and Concourse C, mixed in with mainline flying. Much of the increase in UAX flying came in the 2008-2009 time period when the PM-UA 733/735 aircraft were retired and that flying switched to regionals. At the same time, UAL stations were transitioned to UAX employees too. Just look at number of 1000+ mile flights UAX operations ATL-DEN, MCI-SFO, DFW-SFO as a few examples.

I also wouldn't be surprised if we see RR language added to the UA IAM PCE contract once joint negotiations are complete.

Josh