No Ruling Till The 31st

[ualdriver]

I agree Jungle. Crap or get off the pot! If the IAM thinks that their typical members' educational background and experice will allow them to command a $15-20/hr job with full benefits and a pension in the real world, have at it!
Strike away!

 

[ualdriver]

May 20, 2005

One For Us

Release time: 1:30 p.m. CDT

Dear Sisters and Brothers,

In a dramatic conclusion to the 1113© bankruptcy trial in Chicago, the judge refused to terminate IAM labor agreements and urged both sides to return to the bargaining table and negotiate a fair and equitable settlement.

Judge Eugene Wedoff deferred his final ruling until May 31, 2005 on United’s motion to abrogate contracts covering nearly 20,000 IAM members at United Airlines. IAM attorney’s, representatives and financial experts argued in court that the carrier’s financial demands were unfair to IAM members and would have required substantially more sacrifice than other employee groups at the bankrupt airline.

Your Negotiating Committee and the IAM’s legal team have been working around the clock without sleep for three days. We will now take a brief break, recharge and resume our work of negotiating a fair and equitable agreement.

We hope to negotiate a fair settlement, but that would require a willing partner, and if UAL is not willing to bargain in good faith, today’s decision only delays the inevitable.

Thank you for your outstanding support and solidarity.
Sincerely,


S.R. (Randy) Canale
President & Directing
General Chairman



Is this guy really serious? "One for us?" Will it be "Two for us" when the IAM is striking a ghost?

Their argument is that the IAM is being asked to shoulder an "unfair" amount of the financial sacrifices being asked of the employee groups? YGBSM!! How in the world can they even argue this point? And this is what they're feeding their membership? UFB! Isn't it interesting how all the other unions on the property found a "willing" partner to negotiate with and were able to reach a compromise yet when things aren't going the IAM's way they have an "unwilling partner." Mr. Canale is right that yesterday's decision is only postponing the inevitable, especially if they're making the above arguments with the company's negotiators. Not one IAM member on this forum is even throwing out the BS flag, either. Amazing.

 

[synchronicity]

May 20, 2005

One For Us

Release time: 1:30 p.m. CDT

Dear Sisters and Brothers,

In a dramatic conclusion to the 1113© bankruptcy trial in Chicago, the judge refused to terminate IAM labor agreements and urged both sides to return to the bargaining table and negotiate a fair and equitable settlement.

Judge Eugene Wedoff deferred his final ruling until May 31, 2005 on United’s motion to abrogate contracts covering nearly 20,000 IAM members at United Airlines. IAM attorney’s, representatives and financial experts argued in court that the carrier’s financial demands were unfair to IAM members and would have required substantially more sacrifice than other employee groups at the bankrupt airline.

Your Negotiating Committee and the IAM’s legal team have been working around the clock without sleep for three days. We will now take a brief break, recharge and resume our work of negotiating a fair and equitable agreement.

We hope to negotiate a fair settlement, but that would require a willing partner, and if UAL is not willing to bargain in good faith, today’s decision only delays the inevitable.

Thank you for your outstanding support and solidarity.
Sincerely,
S.R. (Randy) Canale
President & Directing
General Chairman
Is this guy really serious? "One for us?" Will it be "Two for us" when the IAM is striking a ghost?

Their argument is that the IAM is being asked to shoulder an "unfair" amount of the financial sacrifices being asked of the employee groups? YGBSM!! How in the world can they even argue this point? And this is what they're feeding their membership? UFB! Isn't it interesting how all the other unions on the property found a "willing" partner to negotiate with and were able to reach a compromise yet when things aren't going the IAM's way they have an "unwilling partner." Mr. Canale is right that yesterday's decision is only postponing the inevitable, especially if they're making the above arguments with the company's negotiators. Not one IAM member on this forum is even throwing out the BS flag, either. Amazing.

[post="271772"][/post]​

How many IAM members are on this forum?

FWIW, my wife and most of the co-workers she talks to (and again, her department is IAM) think the union is full of BS. Thing is, they think management is even more full of BS.

And another FWIW- the big sticking point for most of them is not that they are being asked to take cuts, but the perception that "management" (aka the head honchos, big cheeses, les grandes fromages, etc.) are not taking any cuts with them.

Another reason why I say that UAL's management should have been pushing "shared sacrifice" from the beginning and making it clear how they are also taking cuts to get the airline going. But I've pounded that drum before.

-synchronicity

 

[ualdriver]

Well, the AFA and management are in arbitration right now to determine whether or not management actually gave up their fair percentage of cuts with this last round. If an arbitrator determines they didn't, not only will the AFA look like a bunch of geniuses (go figure), but I imagine at that point management will have to make up the difference or risk the wrath of the other unions. If the arbitrator does determine that management's numbers add up, then management has given their fair share of paycuts. Either way, they're going to be ponying up the dough AND probably taking a bigger hit than most other groups in the pension department.

 

[coolflyingfool]

I certainly think that AS firing their ramp in SEA and turning it contract overnight cannot happen in any of the UA hub cities. AS is still having pains in SEA and it is 1 week on the job for the contract company. I would hate to be at ORD, DEN, or LAX for that matter if there were a strike and see how long it takes to gets bags from the belly to baggage claim. GOOD LUCK to all!!! Just my thoughts.............

 

[ualdriver]

There's no way UAL could replace 20,000 IAM employees. They're just going to have to turn the lights off on the way out.....Unless, of course, they're not contractually required to operate the lights.

 

[aafsc]

I agree Jungle. Crap or get off the pot! If the IAM thinks that their typical members' educational background and experice will allow them to command a $15-20/hr job with full benefits and a pension in the real world, have at it!
Strike away!

[post="271760"][/post]​

As I have posted on another board, not all rampers are uneducated. Some have bachelors and masters degrees and work the ramp because of the flexibility and benefits. Some of those with degrees work it as a second job in the evening. At least this is the situation where I work (AA). Some of these people got laid off and have been recalled but are not interested in coming back because they discovered that they don't need the bs and are doing just fine in their other fields.

 

[Kev3188]

As I have posted on another board, not all rampers are uneducated. Some have bachelors and masters degrees and work the ramp because of the flexibility and benefits.....

[post="271845"][/post]​

Exactly! The sentiment that all rampers are simian is one of the bigger myths in aviation. Where I work, almost everyone either has a degree, or is in school to get one.

Collectively, the ramp (at least at my carrier) is well-educated, well read, and brings much more to the table than people would like to give them credit for.

 

[ualdriver]

So basically you guys are telling me that the MAJORITY (not the minority) of the people that fill the labor positions at UAL IAM have the means to find jobs that pay better at other companies but they just feel like working for a bankrupt airline that has cut their pay TWICE and decimated their quality of life? But for the past three years they're staying at UAL for..........what? The flight benefits? The glamour? Sorry guys, I don't buy it. It maybe true for a minority but probably not the majority. I think the people that are here 3 years later are stuck here, can't find anything else better, and that's why they haven't left.

And I don't mean to imply that the guys on the ramp are uneducated or dolts or anything like that. Most of them are probably smarter than me! I just don't think there are any better jobs out there or the majority of these guys would be outta here by now after having stewed in UAL's flavorful juices for 3 years.

 

[Skymess]

So basically you guys are telling me that the MAJORITY (not the minority) of the people that fill the labor positions at UAL IAM have the means to find jobs that pay better at other companies but they just feel like working for a bankrupt airline that has cut their pay TWICE and decimated their quality of life? But for the past three years they're staying at UAL for..........what? The flight benefits? The glamour? Sorry guys, I don't buy it. It maybe true for a minority but probably not the majority. I think the people that are here 3 years later are stuck here, can't find anything else better, and that's why they haven't left.

And I don't mean to imply that the guys on the ramp are uneducated or dolts or anything like that. Most of them are probably smarter than me! I just don't think there are any better jobs out there or the majority of these guys would be outta here by now after having stewed in UAL's flavorful juices for 3 years.

[post="271855"][/post]​

I think you are being pretty short sighted. Whether or not they do or don't have degrees, most people can find jobs that can pay between 15-20 an hour as long as they are resourceful and willing to actually work. Unless they are doing some sort of commission sales work, it is most likely going to be some sort of hard labor.

The people I know who stay in the airline industry do it because it is like a sickness. It seeps into your bloodstream and becomes not only your job but your lifestyle. There aren't many places that give you the flexibility the airlines do because most places to work don't stay open 24/7/365. I know that this flexibility was the deciding factor that made me stay after forking over 33% of my salary in 2003. I was bitterly angry until I thought about actually going out and using my degree to get a "job". I don't want a "job". I'll stick with my airline life, thank you.

I guess things do have a limit though. If they came back and tried getting more from me, when I think they illegally took what they did the first time, I'm not giving it. That would be beyond my limit.

You and other UAL people are just going to have to make that decision whether you're willing to give more or not and go from there. I think your biggest problem will be convincing your mechanics that they should stay for minimal salaries and garbage pensions when they can easily get jobs making good $ everywhere.

 

[aafsc]

So basically you guys are telling me that the MAJORITY (not the minority) of the people that fill the labor positions at UAL IAM have the means to find jobs that pay better at other companies but they just feel like working for a bankrupt airline that has cut their pay TWICE and decimated their quality of life? But for the past three years they're staying at UAL for..........what? The flight benefits? The glamour? Sorry guys, I don't buy it. It maybe true for a minority but probably not the majority. I think the people that are here 3 years later are stuck here, can't find anything else better, and that's why they haven't left.

And I don't mean to imply that the guys on the ramp are uneducated or dolts or anything like that. Most of them are probably smarter than me! I just don't think there are any better jobs out there or the majority of these guys would be outta here by now after having stewed in UAL's flavorful juices for 3 years.

[post="271855"][/post]​

There is some truth to your points. Where I work (MIA) there are many who would not be able to do better elsewhere if they are topped out. As you are probably aware, a majority of the people in MIA are from third world countries with little or no formal education and this is reflected on the AA ramp in MIA. However, if they are at the bottom of the seniority list ($8-$12/hr) the uneducated can do better elsewhere. It is probably different where KEV works because they have hubs in cities where the majority were born here and had/has the oppportunity to further their education. But I agree with you that most who are still at UA feel that they are "stuck". I think that when UA brings back something similar to US the IAM membership will ratify. Then those who will not accept the new compensation, and can, will leave in droves (just like what is happening at US now). And those who think they can't and choose to stay will just stay and be miserable. Or they could be just so angry about losing it all they could say "the heck with it, if I am going down I'm bringing them down with me" (Just like the EAL people did) And the EAL people moved on. But I think they will ratify what the IAM brings back. When that level of compensation comes to me at AA I will move on. One thing the EAL situation taught me when I was young; get an eduation. And I am glad I did.

 

[synchronicity]

Well, the AFA and management are in arbitration right now to determine whether or not management actually gave up their fair percentage of cuts with this last round. If an arbitrator determines they didn't, not only will the AFA look like a bunch of geniuses (go figure), but I imagine at that point management will have to make up the difference or risk the wrath of the other unions. If the arbitrator does determine that management's numbers add up, then management has given their fair share of paycuts. Either way, they're going to be ponying up the dough AND probably taking a bigger hit than most other groups in the pension department.

[post="271818"][/post]​

My point isn't about whether or not management has ponied up their "fair share", it's that they've done an absolutely terrible job of communicating what they've given up to make the point that it is truly "shared sacrifice".

-synchronicity

 

[synchronicity]

I agree Jungle. Crap or get off the pot! If the IAM thinks that their typical members' educational background and experice will allow them to command a $15-20/hr job with full benefits and a pension in the real world, have at it!
Strike away!

[post="271760"][/post]​

Well, to be fair to IAM members, there are a few reasons why at least some haven't changed jobs yet. For example, in our situation, part of the reason is the aforementioned flexibility. We have an 8 month old daughter: my wife can work a schedule which requires minimal child care. With good quality child care often running $150-200/week, that's a heckuva burden for another job to overcome.

Second, this is a job where once you're off-duty, you're off-duty. The hours are regular unless you work OT (unlike most salaried jobs out there, where you'll be working over 40 hours for at least part of the year), and you don't have to take work home with you. Once you clock out/sign out/whatever, you're done.

Of course, for most people there's a certain amount of inertia. Finding a new job is usually hard work, and nobody really enjoys that process. Not that it justifies it, I'm just sayin'. In my wife's case, being pregnant and then having an infant around the house has kinda gotten in the way of the job search.

FWIW, I'm currently at a job that pays me less than I would likely command at several other places, but it's 40 hours a week and no more, I have a good boss and a good work environment, and there's plenty of potential for growth.

Having said that, UAL is obviously not a good work environment any more, there's lots of job insecurity, and superior performance is not rewarded. And in my wife's department a number of people are leaving, so a lot of people are getting off that pot and flushing their United job away.

However, I will reiterate that AFAIK the majority of people in my wife's department do not have college degrees, and I believe they'll be hard pressed to find replacement jobs with similar compensation packages and benefits.

-synchronicity

PS- the flight benefits can be an irrational attraction as well. Even when (like us) you don't use them AT ALL for an entire year, and even though logically you know that plane tickets only cost X dollars and that higher pay of Y thousand could buy an awful lot of plane tickets, you still may think "yeah, but if what if I wake up one day and just feel like buying fresh lobster in Maine? I can do that now."

 

[Emil.Howes]

I agree Jungle. Crap or get off the pot! If the IAM thinks that their typical members' educational background and experice will allow them to command a $15-20/hr job with full benefits and a pension in the real world, have at it!
Strike away!

[post="271760"][/post]​

Great!!!

We have yet another pi-lot crying for concessions and blaming others for their misfortune. It is laughable that you and 'Jungle' agree but apparently did not read each others posts. What are you agreeing on?

-BigE

 

[casual rat]

I agree Jungle.  Crap or get off the pot!  If the IAM thinks that their typical members' educational background and experice will allow them to command a $15-20/hr job with full benefits and a pension in the real world, have at it!
Strike away!

[post="271760"][/post]​

No disrespect intended, but many IAM members run small businesses of their own (naturally a hell of alot better than the 'corporate peeps' do-- yes, it's the health care). We're not the 'monkeys' as some will allow--though some 'chimps' do exist. In fact, it's just a slice of life as many pilots/mechanics/ flight attendants/ramp rats/managers, peeps in general, can seem 'moronic' from time to time. Maybe some people choose to be intelligent enough not to be so 'vulnerable'-- to Market Conditions...Do you really want a monkey/'typical' employee loading your airplane? Why does this rift exist anyway? Are you,as a singular group, really that much better than anyone else? Please explain it to this 'chimp', 'cause I don't think so...Explain to me why you deserve 'more' than the guy working along-side you...I'm a 'moron' after all...I thought we were on the same team. What do you know about anyone's background anyhow?...I find you very narrow and insulting....