New TWU president talks tough against DOJ lawsuit, American Airlines layoffs, industry outsourcing

[swamt]

Going from 4000 to 900 is a lot more head count reduction than can be explained by a 20% reduction in flying.

AA reduced head count due to fleet reduction and efficiencies gained by merging two airlines, not due to outsourcing.

So AMFA allows work to be shifted from mechanics in the US to low wage MROs. AMFA is number one in creating thousands of low wage or temporary MRO jobs. Way to go AMFA!

AMFA knows how to fight for jobs. Even the BART unions are currently showing how to fight for jobs and workers. Maybe the TWU and IAM should take some notes from them...

 

[Kev3188]

Yes DL in-sources a ton of work, to their engine shop and so does AA through TAESL. Engines are a low labor high margin business.

IOW, a HIGH rate of return on labor "investment." This then frees up AMTs for other work that further brings in even more revenue. Better yet, engine/component work takes up (relatively) less space, so they save on overhead to boot.

That's all well & good, but the bigger point here? The recall lists are exhausted. Those that want to be on the property are. On top of that, DL continues to open up line stations. Is AA doing that? No? Why not? Why isn't the TWU fighting to bring in that work?

The largest MRO in the world by revenue is GE Engine Services. Have you looked at how many unlicensed mechanics DL uses in Tech Ops? Over 1,500 in the base alone. It's on the FAA Repair Station website. Look it up.

Don't need to... I live it. 'Course lets also remember that DL AMT's do not have a collective bargaining agent. The company is free to do as they wish. OTOH, AA AMT's *do* have an agent (in theory, anyway), and yet, they have no shortage of OSM's. Why is that?

True. AMFA has been completely transparent.

Good. We agree.

Nope. AMFA fell in to NWA's hands on that one. They were hoping that a PEB would come to their rescue but Bush did nothing. NWA had replacements lined up. A job action that kept you on the job would have worked better. Face it. AMFA took a hard line and got the hard one. Thousands more than 50% lost their jobs. Nice job AMFA.

You make it sound like withholding one's labor at that point is something to be ashamed of. Why?

Such as the fact that NWA decreased their operation by over 20% in response to the strike and never recovered and were later merged with Delta.

Never recovered is right! Any of you remember the pool that used to be running over on the NW board?

 

[topDawg]

Yes DL in-sources a ton of work, to their engine shop and so does AA through TAESL. Engines are a low labor high margin business. The largest MRO in the world by revenue is GE Engine Services. Have you looked at how many unlicensed mechanics DL uses in Tech Ops? Over 1,500 in the base alone. It's on the FAA Repair Station website. Look it up.

True. AMFA has been completely transparent. After losing 90% of NWA's jobs to outsourcing, 50% of AS M&R membership, losing UA's M&R to "anything but AMFA" the IBT, and not convincing DL to join AMFA I agree. They have been completely transparent about losing jobs.

AMFA has been completely transparent about paying Delle $500K after the union dropped its membership by 80%.

And democracy? Like when the DOL had to step in recently because of election violations in its last National election? Yeah, completely transparent.

few things. First off, the ASM do jobs you guys outsource. IIRC you guys are dumping your blade and vane shop right?
As far as the engine line themselves Delta has very few if any ASMs. Same for the Test Cells. The ASM are in the back shops and that hangar to a point. (also a big part of the ASM pool is the cabin maintenance side.)

Also for your numbers, We have a little under 1,500 ASMs system wide. ATG is right at 700 of them. MSP is at about 200. The rest of the ASMs are in Cabin Maintenance across the system. In TULE you have 150 less than ATG does.



you have so much ammo to talk about how bad things are at Delta and you always fail at it. Its fairly amazing to me honestly.


Oh one more note. TechOps isn't as engine heavy as it was. IIRC last I heard Airframe was doing about 30-35% of the profit now. Back shops are 15-20% engine shop is the rest.
Delta does overhauls for other airlines, they just don't do them for Delta.


Anyways, I will say you guys need to cut the Line vs OH stuff out. Don't be stupid, once OH is gone they will come after the line next. All your doing is helping the company. All your last contract did was set the craft back again. TWU is clearly not the answer anymore.

 

[topDawg]

All OH? Are you sure?

What is true is the DL *insources* a ton of work, as well as keeping a lot of engine/component work in house...



BTW, how many line stations does DL have compared to what's left at AA?



Maybe, but while you're busy defending an outmoded-and ineffective- style of labor relations, you're missing what everyone is really trying to tell you. It's not about TULE or AFW, or line vs. OH; it's about the total failure of the TWU ATD to deliver for its memebers. It's about a lack of transparency, a lack of accountability, and a lack of democracy- all 3 of which AMFA does extremely well in comparison.

yes, Delta doesn't do any Delta overhauls. (at least not regular work) They do PSVs, the heaviest of which is a 14 or so day check on a narrow body. (and an 88 Oh was a 21-25 day visit back in the day) basically they do C-checks. Ds are done out of house.
88/90s are done at GDL, (AeroMexico) I think AAR has done some of them lately too. (MIA)
757s are done at SAT and sometimes AAR does them at IND I think.
737s are done by AAR, mostly IND
767s are done in HKG
777s in.....Asia somewhere.
no idea about the 747/330
32S are done in SAL.

Oh and course, Delta is building a new hangar to do them all..........in mexico staffed by contractors. This will be the three or fourth vendor in 5 years or so.

the Trent 800s, GE90s, PW4000s for the 330s and V2500s are done out of house. They are opening a CF34-8 line and the 764s CF6s (B8F i think it is) are coming back in house.
And they are beefing up the component abilities for Airbus aircraft.

and the only new line station Delta has added was GRU. They are beefing up staffing out west though.

 

[saywhat]

AMFA knows how to fight for jobs. Even the BART unions are currently showing how to fight for jobs and workers. Maybe the TWU and IAM should take some notes from them...

Why doesn't AMFA go and organize the unorganized that are doing the work here in the U.S.? Raiding organized workers is not going to get labor anywhere unless Companies can't get cheaper unorganized labor at other Companies. If AMFA is such a great Union they would go and organize, the time is right in this industry to get people to listen to a Union's message now more than at any point in the last 10 years. The biggest problem is cheap unorganized labor, not TWU, IAM, IBT, AMFA or any other Union. It doesn't matter if all MTC was AMFA at the big 5 airlines if every other job is unorganized. The best route for any Union member to succeed is to make sure there aren't cheaper options for these scumbag Companies.

 

[TWU informer]

Why doesn't AMFA go and organize the unorganized that are doing the work here in the U.S.? Raiding organized workers is not going to get labor anywhere unless Companies can't get cheaper unorganized labor at other Companies. If AMFA is such a great Union they would go and organize, the time is right in this industry to get people to listen to a Union's message now more than at any point in the last 10 years. The biggest problem is cheap unorganized labor, not TWU, IAM, IBT, AMFA or any other Union. It doesn't matter if all MTC was AMFA at the big 5 airlines if every other job is unorganized. The best route for any Union member to succeed is to make sure there aren't cheaper options for these scumbag Companies.

In my opinion you have it all wrong. We need all AMT's into one union and stop being used against each other. Protect the profession first, then go after the unorganized. If you don't stop the bleeding first, we ALL go to the grave.

 

[Thomas Paine]

Why doesn't AMFA go and organize the unorganized that are doing the work here in the U.S.? Raiding organized workers is not going to get labor anywhere unless Companies can't get cheaper unorganized labor at other Companies. If AMFA is such a great Union they would go and organize, the time is right in this industry to get people to listen to a Union's message now more than at any point in the last 10 years. The biggest problem is cheap unorganized labor, not TWU, IAM, IBT, AMFA or any other Union. It doesn't matter if all MTC was AMFA at the big 5 airlines if every other job is unorganized. The best route for any Union member to succeed is to make sure there aren't cheaper options for these scumbag Companies.

AMFA doesn't "raid" per say, nor do they try and organize mechanics without being solicited by mechanics from the company in question. At best all they do is facilitate grass roots drives from members who are either dissatisfied with the union they have or if a group within an unorganized carrier forms and asks AMFA for help and provide them legal assistance As far as I know they do not have an organizing department.

 

[Kev3188]

you have so much ammo to talk about how bad things are at Delta and you always fail at it. Its fairly amazing to me honestly.

Exactly...

and the only new line station Delta has added was GRU. They are beefing up staffing out west though.

I hear ya, but I was asking how many existing ones DL had/has compared to AA. Kinda goes back to your earlier comment about how Overspeed can't help but fumble...

 

[Thomas Paine]

Going from 4000 to 900 is a lot more head count reduction than can be explained by a 20% reduction in flying.

AA reduced head count due to fleet reduction and efficiencies gained by merging two airlines, not due to outsourcing.

So AMFA allows work to be shifted from mechanics in the US to low wage MROs. AMFA is number one in creating thousands of low wage or temporary MRO jobs. Way to go AMFA!

So is going from 18000 to 6500. Bottom line is NWA no longer exists, they won the battle but lost the war. Those 3200 mechanics have moved on, many doing better than they would had they rolled over, you forget the fact that if the guys at NWA had rolled over they would have lost 50% anyway and the reason why NWA struggled along with just 900, when they wanted 2000 is because they could not find 1100 more scabs.

Temporary jobs? Am I missing something, didn't we also get rid of the "P" and "S" for system protection? So technically we are all temporary workers and just like the MROs if they don't have work for us, even if they are outsourcing work we could do, they can lay us off just like the MRO's who are non-union.

Does it really matter whether you lose your job due to outsourcing or efficiencies gained through mergers or concessions? Well, Yes, but you support losing your job the way thats worse for the profession but good for the company, no suprise there. Losing your job due to efficiencies, which you claim is what caused us to lose over 50% of the jobs at AA, is worse than losing your job due to a transfer of work to a different location such as through outsourcing. If work gets transferred to a different location then there isn't a net loss of jobs, with efficiency gains, like those you advocated with JLT, PLI and concessions such as giving up a week of vacation those jobs are actually eliminated permanently from the system as a whole. So, not only did we lower our compensation, but we also agreed to efficiencies that eliminated jobs permanently from the industry as a whole. We not only agreed to massive cuts in compensation but we agreed to work harder and work more hours essentially for free in addition to the compensation cuts and productivity gains. Instead of the jobs being shifted to a low wage MROs, where kids out of school can get experience with the hopes of getting a good paying job at a legacy carrier, or SWA, we helped eliminate those jobs entirely, with the company getting all those savings, and we lowered the wages at one of the legacies to be more in line with what MRO's pay than what legacies typically pay.

Once again you come out on the wrong side of the argument, you blast AMFA for creating thousands of low wage jobs, while admitting that they have preserved wages at SWA and defend the TWU for not only eliminating jobs permanently, but also lowering the wages of all the mechanics they represent.

 

[Thomas Paine]

Never left it out. You make another very important point, we are not SWA and do fly a more complex fleet. Their non-labor operating costs are inherently lower and allow them to pay more and make a profit unlike AA that has higher non-labor operating costs.

Wrong, because SWA charges bargain basement fares, they don't have first class so the amount of revenue generated per flight is far less. So yes their operating costs are lower, but so is their revenue. IIRC they generate around half the revenue that AA does with nearly the same number of aircraft and even more flights.

 

[Overspeed]

Wrong, because SWA charges bargain basement fares, they don't have first class so the amount of revenue generated per flight is far less. So yes their operating costs are lower, but so is their revenue. IIRC they generate around half the revenue that AA does with nearly the same number of aircraft and even more flights.

Wrong. Using 2012 numbers AA RASM was 12.27 cents and SWA 12.02 cents. The spread is minimal.

AA labor CESM (stage length adjusted) is 4.48 cents and SWA is 2.98 cents. Total costs for CESM are even more striking. 11.30 for AA and 6.30 for SWA.

Looking at the facts you can easily see that SWA has very similar revenue (the low fare thing is not true at SWA anymore, have you looked up a fare lately?) to AA and has lower operating costs. The labor CESM shows that SWA spends less on in-house labor and the total costs shows that spend even less due to outsourcing. The story is similar at the other airlines as well.

So SWA generates similar revenue as AA with about half the cost. You should do some research next time.

 

[Overspeed]

So is going from 18000 to 6500. Bottom line is NWA no longer exists, they won the battle but lost the war. Those 3200 mechanics have moved on, many doing better than they would had they rolled over, you forget the fact that if the guys at NWA had rolled over they would have lost 50% anyway and the reason why NWA struggled along with just 900, when they wanted 2000 is because they could not find 1100 more scabs.

Temporary jobs? Am I missing something, didn't we also get rid of the "P" and "S" for system protection? So technically we are all temporary workers and just like the MROs if they don't have work for us, even if they are outsourcing work we could do, they can lay us off just like the MRO's who are non-union.

Does it really matter whether you lose your job due to outsourcing or efficiencies gained through mergers or concessions? Well, Yes, but you support losing your job the way thats worse for the profession but good for the company, no suprise there. Losing your job due to efficiencies, which you claim is what caused us to lose over 50% of the jobs at AA, is worse than losing your job due to a transfer of work to a different location such as through outsourcing. If work gets transferred to a different location then there isn't a net loss of jobs, with efficiency gains, like those you advocated with JLT, PLI and concessions such as giving up a week of vacation those jobs are actually eliminated permanently from the system as a whole. So, not only did we lower our compensation, but we also agreed to efficiencies that eliminated jobs permanently from the industry as a whole. We not only agreed to massive cuts in compensation but we agreed to work harder and work more hours essentially for free in addition to the compensation cuts and productivity gains. Instead of the jobs being shifted to a low wage MROs, where kids out of school can get experience with the hopes of getting a good paying job at a legacy carrier, or SWA, we helped eliminate those jobs entirely, with the company getting all those savings, and we lowered the wages at one of the legacies to be more in line with what MRO's pay than what legacies typically pay.

Once again you come out on the wrong side of the argument, you blast AMFA for creating thousands of low wage jobs, while admitting that they have preserved wages at SWA and defend the TWU for not only eliminating jobs permanently, but also lowering the wages of all the mechanics they represent.

If you want the TWU to give AA the AMFA SWA contract at AA I'm positive management will jump at the chance as long as they get the WHOLE contract.

To paraphrase Ross Perot, you're going to hear a ginat sucking sound of all those AMT jobs in TUL going south.

 

[swamt]

If you want the TWU to give AA the AMFA SWA contract at AA I'm positive management will jump at the chance as long as they get the WHOLE contract.

To paraphrase Ross Perot, you're going to hear a ginat sucking sound of all those AMT jobs in TUL going south.

The AMT job losses in Tulsa was already agreed upon by the TWU. An X-employee at AFW has said there will be more Tulsa job losses this year and going into next year, somewhere around 3-400, but he had no firm numbers. Total mechanic job losses in Tulsa will be 65% overall thru 2017. I'm pretty sure this would have been voted down if all of Tulsa new this was going to happen ahead of time. You know what, you almost have the very exact scenario from NWA where they wanted 53% plus of the membership gone. In this case the company wants 65% of Tulsa by 2017, and this was agreed to by the TWU and pushed for selling, by the union, for a YES vote instead of standing up for the members and fighting, they just cave and accept what ever the company wants, been doing it for well over 3 decades, very sad, very sad indeed. It's time for change guys. Now; allow me to introduce overspin to come in and give his full blown version of twist and turn. I see he came back after a brief absence once again. Wonder what kind of deals he had to go make with the company behind closed doors, I'm sure you guys will hear about them soon, OH, never mind they will just implement them...

 

[Overspeed]

The AMT job losses in Tulsa was already agreed upon by the TWU. An X-employee at AFW has said there will be more Tulsa job losses this year and going into next year, somewhere around 3-400, but he had no firm numbers. Total mechanic job losses in Tulsa will be 65% overall thru 2017. I'm pretty sure this would have been voted down if all of Tulsa new this was going to happen ahead of time. You know what, you almost have the very exact scenario from NWA where they wanted 53% plus of the membership gone. In this case the company wants 65% of Tulsa by 2017, and this was agreed to by the TWU and pushed for selling, by the union, for a YES vote instead of standing up for the members and fighting, they just cave and accept what ever the company wants, been doing it for well over 3 decades, very sad, very sad indeed. It's time for change guys. Now; allow me to introduce overspin to come in and give his full blown version of twist and turn. I see he came back after a brief absence once again. Wonder what kind of deals he had to go make with the company behind closed doors, I'm sure you guys will hear about them soon, OH, never mind they will just implement them...

65% of TUL? How did you come up with that number? Not going to happen. It's not possible per the formula.

Did you read the NMB told AMFA no deal on allowing a vote?

http://www.amfanational.org/?zone=/unionactive/view_article.cfm&HomeID=365815

 

[TWU informer]

65% of TUL? How did you come up with that number? Not going to happen. It's not possible per the formula.

Did you read the NMB told AMFA no deal on allowing a vote?

http://www.amfanatio...m&HomeID=365815

You must be so proud. First using deceased and unskilled to prevent a vote. Then next bringing in the Teamsters to prevent the vote. What exactly is it that causes you to fear a ballot reaching the dues paying member? You seem so confident in your praise of the TWU, yet the strategy is always prevent a ballot from reaching the member to make the choice. If you are that confident, then stop derailing the ballot and see what the membership's choice might be. Campaign on the TWU skills you praise and put this to rest. Instead, TWU stays on the property with massive dissent against. And you call that a strong Union? Illogical and pathetic. Now even the most supportive TWU members are questioning the legitimacy of their representation. Success? Not hardly.