Mesa's Ornstein Say's Pilots Overpaid

[OldpropGuy]

From another post:

>Keep in mind...Ornstein is doing plenty to keep the industry salaries at poverty >wages. His comments about "Pilots" being over paid should alarm you directly.
>
>How can he assume that his pilots are over-paid? Simple "I have no problems >filling my new hire Pilot classes".


This is from the man who is trying to take over ACA and anything else he can add to his slave wage company!

But can one blame him from a business standpoint. As long as pilots will agree to fly under his substandard conditions and US Airways ALPA continues to allow the subcontracting of our flying to his company, he would be a fool to do otherwise.

I cannot feel any sympathy for the MESA (including J4J) pilots as they accept these conditions. Personally, I would go homeless on the street and may yet, before I nwill stoop that low. Flying is just not what it used to be! If this is any indication of the Airline Industry of the future, I refuse to be a part of it.

It's a shame in this dog eat dog world, it's all about the bottom line!

Could this be the beginning of the new world order brought to you by "Siegel & Ornstein"?

or ................ maybe it's just me. I must be getting too old for this crap.
:angry:

 

[airlineorphan]

I agree that J.O. is bad news for working people in the airline industry and beyond.

But when you say you have no sympathy for Mesa pilots over the sweatshop conditions over there, my question is this:

Will you and others give them solidarity when some of them start fight back (as some of them have over the last year)?

Any solidarity we give them to improve their conditions of employment is ultimately solidarity back to ourselves because of the way airlines like Mesa drag down the wages elsewhere.

Solidarity forever!
-Airlineorphan

 

[OldpropGuy]

>Will you and others give them solidarity when some of them start fight back (as some of them have over the last year)?

Sorry I haven't seen any of this effort but would certainly support the rebels! h34r: But, their last contract was voted in by an overwhelming margin.

The majority of the overheard crew room chat seems to indicate that most are glad to be there, and oblivious to their plight. Where else can a low-timer be a Jet Captain? I'm sure that not all share this view, but they too seem to idly tag along for the ride as their company continues to grow.

 

[airlineorphan]

Fair enough. I share your frustration with this sort of koolaid drinking. I have not spoken directly with Mesa pilots on this, but got some indications from Mesa f/a's that there was a lot more ire amongst the pilots than met the eye.

For those who want to see some fight back there and elsewhere, we should always be on the lookout for people to ally with in a place like Mesa.

I think cruddy contracts often get passed because opposition is not yet organized enough. Of course the passage of a cruddy contract can also help organize the opposition down the road. I have hope!

Nice bakalava.

In solidarity,
-Airlineorphan

 

[diogenes]

By Orstein's logic, he, too, is overpaid.

There must be no end of folks willing to do his job for less!

 

[airlineorphan]

Diogenes,

You've got it all wrong!

To make AMT's, CSR's, F/A's and Pilots work harder, you pay them less.

To make CEO's work harder (hardly?) you pay them more!

C'mon, get with the program!


In solidarity,
-Airlineorphan

 

[diogenes]

Sorry orphan, I was temporarily overcome with the need to think for myself!

Which way's the kool aid?

 

[airlineorphan]

Diogenes,

Whenever you feel you are succumbing to pernicious "Class Envy Syndrome" just repeat the following meditation.



Corporation is Mother.

Corporation is Father.




There, now don't you feel better?

-Airlineorphan



Gotcher koolaid! Happy koolaid! Drink up and believe!

 

[nereus]

Old prop guy,
While I'm with you now, I wasn't when I first started in this industry. I worked for Mesa long before Ornstein was on the scene. My poverty level wages when I signed on with Mesa were a step up for me since I was earning no wage. Some instructing here, a charter there, but no regular income. I left a fine job in order to fly. I knew what I was getting into. To insinuate that Mesa pilots should not be Mesa pilots and that new airline pilots should not be new airline pilots is disingenuous. We all start somewhere and Mesa is a starting point. If the regionals do become a career choice instead of a stepping stone then I would expect we would see what you crave. Until then it isn't going to happen and to say that a new eager pilot walking toward the airline world should just walk away is very naiive. I didn't do it then and if I was in the same position today as I was those many years ago I would do it again.

N

 

[OldpropGuy]

nereus,

I guess you're correct. We should welcome anyone who will do our jobs for less and greet them them with open arms.

Sorry for being so self-centered! :unsure:

I'm sure it's just me.

 

[nwa400]

What goes around comes around. There is an RJ pilot that left a 55k a year job to get his ratings and become "the airline pilot." He paid 50k for his training with a guarantee of an interview with a commuter. Now he is an f/o on a small jet and making less than 1500 a month. He says that he cannot wait to be captain and he would do it for less than the captains he is flying with now. How low will people go? Will people be away from home 20 days and nights a month and fly 120 hrs. to be "the airline pilot," and make poverty wages? My guess is....yes. So, if you think that you will undercut the market and take some guy or gals job for less money.......be ready to accept the results of that kind of thinking. I say again "What goes around comes around!" Why would any bright young man or woman choose to come into an industry that is on its way down the toilet? It is just sad, so very sad.

 

[mrplanes]

Ornstein is corrct. Supply is higher than demand and his pilots are overpaid. If they weren't, he would have problems filling his classes and his airplanes wouldn't leave the ground. If you work for him, you are overpaid.

mr

 

[OldpropGuy]

Let's not forget that ALPA National is giving it's blessings to these substandard contracts. At the very least, the organization appears to be failing their ultimate duty to the members, by allowing our profession to be undermined by these modern day Frank Lorenzo types! :angry:

Are they, ALPA, setting themselves up for even more legal action?

Straight from the ALPA page:

Mission Statement: The mission of the Air Line Pilots Association is to promote and champion all aspects of aviation safety throughout all segments of the aviation community; to represent, in both specific and general respects, the collective interests of all pilots in commercial aviation; to assist in collective bargaining activities on behalf of all pilots represented by the Association; to promote the health and welfare of the members of the Association before all governmental agencies; to be a strong, forceful advocate of the airline piloting profession, through all forms of media, and with the public at large; and to be the ultimate guardian and defender of the rights and privileges of the professional pilots who are members of the Association.--ALPA Board of Directors, October 1992

 

[airlineorphan]

Setting everything else aside, I have to say that when I am sitting in a seat, bolted to a frame, inside an aluminum tube, hurtling down the runway, I want everyone who is involved in flying the plane, fixing and maintaining the plane and dealing with an emergency to be fat and happy. And I want the people who deal with the rest of the operation to be fat and happy. Lean and scared people make more mistakes.


But I forget myself. The true formula for bliss in capitalism is as I said before:

To get the workers to work harder, you pay them less.

To get management to work harder, you pay them more.



Seriously folks, aside from the injustice of all of this, there is a social price that eventually is paid by everyone when management types like Orenstein nickel and dime pilots or other employee groups.


in solidarity,
-Airlineorphan

 

[airlineorphan]

Well, Bob, I can think of a few other flaws....

The replacement of human social relations with commercial transactions, the atomization of community, the profound crisis of meaning that manifests for people as a result of this, the enormous social and political power that results from enormous concentration of wealth, the destructive and costly cycle of boom and bust. The enormous waste that is required to keep the Dave Siegels and his ilk in the lifestyle of which they have grown accustomed. A destructive class conflict that cannot be avoided or swept under the rug, and the enormous human and environmental costs of a system that socializes the costs and risk while privatizing all of the gains (i.e. the greatest system of passing the buck ever!).

But you are right when you say the only way to counter things like the capitalist demand for cheap labor being to be organized (which is more than simply being unionized).

As for Mr. Siegel's ethics, I just might have a little teensy smidgen of respect for the man if he had just come out and said "I'm going to kick all y'all to the curb and raid your contracts for billions of dollars." instead of "Hi I'm Dave. I'm labor-friendly." (I never bought the "labor-friendly" line anyway.) You're right, competitive pressures in the airline industry drive management to screw over their employees, vendors, customers, et cetera, but that does not absolve them. Enormous economic pressures could drive me to a life of crime, but would that absolve me of the ethical problems of that?

But these are big questions, so I won't pretend they can be addressed in a few short postings. While I don't always agree with you Bob, I'm glad that you are out there raising your own hell around that paragon of customer service, BBB, and I never thought I'd meet a cockroach I could like!

In solidarity,
Airlineorphan