Merger "facts"

[TravelDude]

Maybe I missed something. Where is UAL going to get the money to purchase US and how are they going to assume so much of US's debt load? I am not a math wizard or an accountant, but I can't see how UAL will be able to pull this off. Sorry.

EXACTLY...could not have said it better...so how about we close this merger discussion...UNTIL...IF...there is an announcement! All this discussion does is get people from both companies worked up for NO REASON!

 

[TravelDude]

Maybe I missed something. Where is UAL going to get the money to purchase US and how are they going to assume so much of US's debt load? I am not a math wizard or an accountant, but I can't see how UAL will be able to pull this off. Sorry.

EXACTLY...could not have said it better...so how about we close this merger discussion...UNTIL...IF...there is an announcement! All this discussion does is get people from both companies worked up for NO REASON!

 

[767jetz]

This story really hit home for me. Shame on any of you that say D-O-H is not a proper policy. You think that the F/A's from TW should have realized that they were working for a "sinking company?" Get a life! Some people actually have a strong allegiance to the company they work for. In fact, most employees of airlines will take a "I will go down with this ship" mentality. Personally, my "company" can never go down, but if I worked for a pubicly traded company that was struggling, I would never abandon it.

ISP,

Since you work for the government, (an FAA inspector of some type at the FSDO in Islip, I assume) your "company" doesn't exist in the same universe that most real companies do. Therefore, I don't expect you to fully understand what's involved here.

In your example, let's change a few things for comparison purposes and see what we come up with. Maybe this way I can lead you to discovery. (An old Flight Instructing term) Suppose this 50 yrs old woman had spent 30 years as a retail sales person for a company. She is a top saleswoman making max commission, max vacation, and max retirement benefits. Do to a faultering economy, the retail business falls off sharply and her department store closes the door. Tragically she is layed off. So she applies to Macy's and lands a job in the same department.

Should she receive the same vacation benefits and schedule perks over the employees who have been working at Macy's prior to her? In the real world, this just doesn't happen. Anywhere.

And by the way, I happen to have a friend whose father was was a sales associate for A&S department stores for over 20 years. When A&S went BK and was bought by Bloomingdales, he lost his seniority, vacation, and quality of life. In the end it was tragic, but he survived and eventually went on to retire from Boomingdales with a smaller pension.

These people are victims of the economy, terrorism, or maybe poor management, but certainly not the victims of the employees of the companies they end up at.

 

[Light Years]

Hogwash. Companies don't get bought because they are dying or dead. In fact, they normally get bought because the buyer wants or needs them, even if it's just to eliminate a competitor. Its not like they are babies left on the acquirer's doorstep.

Traveldude, you seem to be the only one that felt the need to post in large red letters... for the most part everyone else remained calm. I've said my bit and listened to the opposing argument... not a single one has any merit with me. Fair is fair, seniority is seniority, and I'm glad the union (and the airline I used to work for) agree. I most likely will not fly for a major airline again and if my former airline merges that chance is even less likely. Do I think a senior person, from my airline as it was when I was there, or from another airline that merges, should lose thier job before me? No. Do I think that flight attendant candidates are selectively choosing an airline that will provide them with a 30 year career when they apply to interviews? No. No one has a crystal ball (except Miss Cleo and a certain pilot). Ask a Pan Am, TWA, Eastern, or Braniff flight attendant... those were pretty damm good airlines at a time. Do I think F/As have any control whatsoever over thier company's fate? No. What a ridiculous, self-important notion.

And to the poster with FOUR YEARS?!? That equivalent to two weeks in this industry... and you already have an attitude like that? Wow....

Y'all have fun.

 

[Albatroz]

Light Years, good post! What you wrote makes sense. In this insustry, within the "Big Six", or whatever they called, there are very few people that are tuned to reality.

 

[firstamendment]

Piedmont Airlines was bought by U in 1989 and was very successful and profitable. This purchase by U was to fend off attempts by TWA to buy U. Outbidding Norfolk and Southern and ironically TWA itself left U less desirable due to the buy out.

So, no, airlines don't have to be going down the tubes to get bought out, although the industry has changed and very few can afford to buy ANYTHING.

 

[fliboi78]

Fliboi

YOUR airline bought TWA. YOUR airline either saw value in TWA or bought them to try to be the biggest airline in the world. If you buy an airline, you buy their people AND their senority.

You can provide all the excuses in the world. I will respect you more if you would just state your truth, which is like most: I am a selfish, egotist, looking after my own interest. I feel my lowly 4 years of seniority at AA is more pure because I am a real AA f/a. The TWA f/a's are not real AA f/a's and deserve to not be here. My pals that quit TWA and went to AA should be rewarded for jumping the boat. They should not be penalized for waiting. It's all about me me me me me...period.

As silly as it seems, most fall in this category but are too cowardly to admit it. AND, just because AA "appears" to be on top of the world, you are NOT the "desired" airline and respected company to work for and AA is as vulnerable as any to "fail". There are two new sheriffs in town...Southwest and Jetblue. The word on the street is no longer "I wish I worked for AA"...it's I wanna work for Jetblue or Southwest" So enjoy your longevity of 4 whole years at AA and talk to me about industry issues when you have 15 or 20 years. One's opinion of this industry changes with time.

just so you know, my desired airline was UAL! i applied once before i got hired with AA and twice afterwards(one time being about three months before 9/11). so it had nothing to do with AA being the biggest or best. I just wanted to fly with an airline that flew to a lot of places and UAL, to me, is still the most diverse (of going to different destinations). AA being the biggest and the best?!?!?!?! you talk to most AA fa's and we all hate AA me being one of them! so i said nothing about anyone wanting to work for "the biggest and the best". i recognize seniority as being everything in this job. i have been stuck in ny for years now because i can't go anywhere else. i've had my car stolen once my appt broken into once and damn near mugged once. but i stay because it is the job, not the company. i am from wisconsin and was living there when i was hired with AA. after applying with ATA and UAL and getting rejected i was sick of looking and stayed. i was even thinking of applying with twa but i found out that they had to pay for their trainning or something.

when we first bought twa i felt horrible for them that they gave their lives, if not more, for that airline. i, along with A LOT of other junior people, were the only ones who felt bad for the TWA fa's. when one of us said something like, "those poor girls/guys", we were all told by the senior people that they deserved it and other hateful things. but then i found out that they would be getting paid double if not more than what i was making, i thought that that was fair. they got brought up to what an AA flight attendant was making at their TWA DOH seniority and a lot of them were in their 30th and almost 40th year. they got vacation as an AA fa. the only thing they didn't get was their occupational seniority. i thought that was fair. no one knew that 9/11 would happen and all these layoffs and crap would happen. also i must admit that it is crap that AA shut down all of their domiciles except STL. i know tons of them had homes in ny and la a the such but we all commute.

as for me, you are damned right i am trying to protect my seniority. i earned it! but i am not greedy. i am sorry it had to happen but it did. i might be layed off or AA might be liquidated as you said but i would just go and look for another job. we are resiliant people airline folk. and one thing i have learned in MY LITTLE 4 YEARS in the airline industry is that we all have to give and take. especially since 9/11.

and why can't i comment on something that is affecting my life? yes, i started 4 years ago in this industry. just because i only have 4 years in the industry means i can't defend and or speak my mind on the matters of seniority and my job? maybe some other docile junior fa. but i've been in ny now for 4 years and i know one thing, either you speak your mind or you are trampled upon. i'd rather speak.

 

[firstamendment]

Fliboi

YOUR airline bought TWA. YOUR airline either saw value in TWA or bought them to try to be the biggest airline in the world. If you buy an airline, you buy their people AND their senority.

You can provide all the excuses in the world. I will respect you more if you would just state your truth, which is like most: I am a selfish, egotist, looking after my own interest. I feel my lowly 4 years of seniority at AA is more pure because I am a real AA f/a. The TWA f/a's are not real AA f/a's and deserve to not be here. My pals that quit TWA and went to AA should be rewarded for jumping the boat. They should not be penalized for waiting. It's all about me me me me me...period.

As silly as it seems, most fall in this category but are too cowardly to admit it. AND, just because AA "appears" to be on top of the world, you are NOT the "desired" airline and respected company to work for and AA is as vulnerable as any to "fail". There are two new sheriffs in town...Southwest and Jetblue. The word on the street is no longer "I wish I worked for AA"...it's I wanna work for Jetblue or Southwest" So enjoy your longevity of 4 whole years at AA and talk to me about industry issues when you have 15 or 20 years. One's opinion of this industry changes with time.

just so you know, my desired airline was UAL! i applied once before i got hired with AA and twice afterwards(one time being about three months before 9/11). so it had nothing to do with AA being the biggest or best. I just wanted to fly with an airline that flew to a lot of places and UAL, to me, is still the most diverse (of going to different destinations). AA being the biggest and the best?!?!?!?! you talk to most AA fa's and we all hate AA me being one of them! so i said nothing about anyone wanting to work for "the biggest and the best". i recognize seniority as being everything in this job. i have been stuck in ny for years now because i can't go anywhere else. i've had my car stolen once my appt broken into once and damn near mugged once. but i stay because it is the job, not the company. i am from wisconsin and was living there when i was hired with AA. after applying with ATA and UAL and getting rejected i was sick of looking and stayed. i was even thinking of applying with twa but i found out that they had to pay for their trainning or something.

when we first bought twa i felt horrible for them that they gave their lives, if not more, for that airline. i, along with A LOT of other junior people, were the only ones who felt bad for the TWA fa's. when one of us said something like, "those poor girls/guys", we were all told by the senior people that they deserved it and other hateful things. but then i found out that they would be getting paid double if not more than what i was making, i thought that that was fair. they got brought up to what an AA flight attendant was making at their TWA DOH seniority and a lot of them were in their 30th and almost 40th year. they got vacation as an AA fa. the only thing they didn't get was their occupational seniority. i thought that was fair. no one knew that 9/11 would happen and all these layoffs and crap would happen. also i must admit that it is crap that AA shut down all of their domiciles except STL. i know tons of them had homes in ny and la a the such but we all commute.

as for me, you are damned right i am trying to protect my seniority. i earned it! but i am not greedy. i am sorry it had to happen but it did. i might be layed off or AA might be liquidated as you said but i would just go and look for another job. we are resiliant people airline folk. and one thing i have learned in MY LITTLE 4 YEARS in the airline industry is that we all have to give and take. especially since 9/11.

and why can't i comment on something that is affecting my life? yes, i started 4 years ago in this industry. just because i only have 4 years in the industry means i can't defend and or speak my mind on the matters of seniority and my job? maybe some other docile junior fa. but i've been in ny now for 4 years and i know one thing, either you speak your mind or you are trampled upon. i'd rather speak.

Fli,

I totally respect your opinions, however pay parity and vacation is VERY common amongst most mergers. It truely is fair to, yes, reward years of service and most f/as agree 100% with that where pay and vacation is concerned. Just remember, picture your hard working mom or dad and how happy you would be for them if one of them were in a similar situation. We are not talking about a twenty-five year old who can easily use his youth to make a comparable salary. We live in a youth oriented society and many times the yunnin gets a job first over the elders. Stop for a moment and think about the situation as it is. I take it your around 26...great age, but overtime you will understand why many fight for these parity issues, including DOH seniority. I hope you understand that experience counts for nothing in this industry if your company goes under. You have 4 years of experience in this field. Do you really feel the TWA f/a's experience is worth THAT little that they be stapled to the bottom?

Regardless, you guys at AMR have been totally brainwashed on this one so let's agree to disagree. h34r:

 

[TransWorldONE]

Fliboi

YOUR airline bought TWA. YOUR airline either saw value in TWA or bought them to try to be the biggest airline in the world. If you buy an airline, you buy their people AND their senority.

You can provide all the excuses in the world. I will respect you more if you would just state your truth, which is like most: I am a selfish, egotist, looking after my own interest. I feel my lowly 4 years of seniority at AA is more pure because I am a real AA f/a. The TWA f/a's are not real AA f/a's and deserve to not be here. My pals that quit TWA and went to AA should be rewarded for jumping the boat. They should not be penalized for waiting. It's all about me me me me me...period.

As silly as it seems, most fall in this category but are too cowardly to admit it. AND, just because AA "appears" to be on top of the world, you are NOT the "desired" airline and respected company to work for and AA is as vulnerable as any to "fail". There are two new sheriffs in town...Southwest and Jetblue. The word on the street is no longer "I wish I worked for AA"...it's I wanna work for Jetblue or Southwest" So enjoy your longevity of 4 whole years at AA and talk to me about industry issues when you have 15 or 20 years. One's opinion of this industry changes with time.

just so you know, my desired airline was UAL! i applied once before i got hired with AA and twice afterwards(one time being about three months before 9/11). so it had nothing to do with AA being the biggest or best. I just wanted to fly with an airline that flew to a lot of places and UAL, to me, is still the most diverse (of going to different destinations). AA being the biggest and the best?!?!?!?! you talk to most AA fa's and we all hate AA me being one of them! so i said nothing about anyone wanting to work for "the biggest and the best". i recognize seniority as being everything in this job. i have been stuck in ny for years now because i can't go anywhere else. i've had my car stolen once my appt broken into once and damn near mugged once. but i stay because it is the job, not the company. i am from wisconsin and was living there when i was hired with AA. after applying with ATA and UAL and getting rejected i was sick of looking and stayed. i was even thinking of applying with twa but i found out that they had to pay for their trainning or something.

when we first bought twa i felt horrible for them that they gave their lives, if not more, for that airline. i, along with A LOT of other junior people, were the only ones who felt bad for the TWA fa's. when one of us said something like, "those poor girls/guys", we were all told by the senior people that they deserved it and other hateful things. but then i found out that they would be getting paid double if not more than what i was making, i thought that that was fair. they got brought up to what an AA flight attendant was making at their TWA DOH seniority and a lot of them were in their 30th and almost 40th year. they got vacation as an AA fa. the only thing they didn't get was their occupational seniority. i thought that was fair. no one knew that 9/11 would happen and all these layoffs and crap would happen. also i must admit that it is crap that AA shut down all of their domiciles except STL. i know tons of them had homes in ny and la a the such but we all commute.

as for me, you are damned right i am trying to protect my seniority. i earned it! but i am not greedy. i am sorry it had to happen but it did. i might be layed off or AA might be liquidated as you said but i would just go and look for another job. we are resiliant people airline folk. and one thing i have learned in MY LITTLE 4 YEARS in the airline industry is that we all have to give and take. especially since 9/11.

and why can't i comment on something that is affecting my life? yes, i started 4 years ago in this industry. just because i only have 4 years in the industry means i can't defend and or speak my mind on the matters of seniority and my job? maybe some other docile junior fa. but i've been in ny now for 4 years and i know one thing, either you speak your mind or you are trampled upon. i'd rather speak.

Fli,

I totally respect your opinions, however pay parity and vacation is VERY common amongst most mergers. It truely is fair to, yes, reward years of service and most f/as agree 100% with that where pay and vacation is concerned. Just remember, picture your hard working mom or dad and how happy you would be for them if one of them were in a similar situation. We are not talking about a twenty-five year old who can easily use his youth to make a comparable salary. We live in a youth oriented society and many times the yunnin gets a job first over the elders. Stop for a moment and think about the situation as it is. I take it your around 26...great age, but overtime you will understand why many fight for these parity issues, including DOH seniority. I hope you understand that experience counts for nothing in this industry if your company goes under. You have 4 years of experience in this field. Do you really feel the TWA f/a's experience is worth THAT little that they be stapled to the bottom?

Regardless, you guys at AMR have been totally brainwashed on this one so let's agree to disagree. h34r:

Thankyou for your thoughtful post Firstamendment.

 

[skyflyr69]

more info from Holly, :blink:

Speaking of information, a couple of comments about United Airlines before
we talk about other things this week, because I think the situation here
merits some attention.

One, you probably are aware by now that the airline has asked for yet
another delay in presenting its restructuring plan to the bankruptcy court.

This request for a delay comes after airline officials just recently said
that the airline was still on track to emerge from bankruptcy protection in
June. Crucial to meeting that timeline was the fact the airline was
scheduled to present a restructuring plan no later than March 8.

Monday, the airline asked the bankruptcy court to delay this date until June
30.

However, oddly enough, United also apparently told the court that "as of
this filing" the company remains "on track to emerge from Chapter 11 during
the first half of this year."

Now, how they hope to manage this hat trick beats the heck out of me.

While the excuses given for the delay were the usual (no need to rush this,
not unusual given a bankruptcy of this size), my sources tell me there are
other problems at the airline that are also pushing the request.

Simply put, the airline is running short of cash. And last week, the airline
basically busied itself in a frenzied attempt to raise more cash.

From what I am told, the airline is in danger of not meeting its February
debtor-in-possession covenants. As of last week, I am told the airline was
running about $40 million to $50 million short, according to projections.

You may have noticed that the airline launched a fairly major sale last
week. The intent? To raise cash.

But, according to what I hear, the effort did not produce as much cash as
the airline had hoped. As a result, as one person told me, "It's pretty much
a crisis mode around here."

This is not a small thing.

Creditors who are already upset at the airline and its lack of openness
about what it plans to do as part of its restructuring could take such a
situation and use it to their advantage. In addition, as I understand it, a
number of not-so-nice things would be put into motion with a default of the
DIP loan agreement, including a much higher cost of borrowing for the
airline.

How does the cash outlook look for March? Not good there either from what I
understand.

Interestingly, Moody's, the debt-rating firm, issued a note Monday in which
they basically withdrew all of its ratings assigned to UAL debt. The company
is clearly not happy with the situation at United , as it said that while
some recovery could be expected for owners of certain EETC instruments, for
example, that "the result will be highly dependent upon the value of the
aircraft collateral, the structure of the individual transaction and the
outcome of what have become prolonged discussions with United. Completion of
negotiations has been repeatedly delayed and the company has determined that
it is in the best interests that negotiations regarding both interim and
final payment terms be kept confidential. United reached agreement with the
bankruptcy court to keep related documents sealed."

The note concluded, "With a lack of consistently available information,
Moody's is unable to maintain current ratings for these transactions."

Meanwhile, Ted, one of management's answers to the airline's financial
problems takes flight this week.

 

[Fly]

blah, blah, blah

 

[767jetz]

More misinformation. :down:

The fact is that the extension purely allows United to continue it's exclusivity in presenting a business plan. The judge is expected to grant the extension.

What this means is that no other investor, equity or otherwise can submit a competing POR in an effort to circumvent what United is trying to do.

For those who would like a simple version, the extension, if granted as expected means someone like RSA or TGP (or Chip Munn for that matter ) can't step in and say, "OK UA had their chance. Now here's our offer. And by the way it includes a new BOD, plus we're selling off x,y,&z."

The extension has no bearing on the exit plan. It only maintains UA's exclusive right to file it's POR and no one else. (Sorry Chip) Technically, the POR can be filed the morning of June 30th and approved by the close of business that day.

This is more smoke being blown by uninformed people who like to speculate without all the facts.

 

[737nCH11]

I may be totally naive, but I have a hard time believing that they would roll out the incentive bonus plan at a time when there is a supposed cash crunch. Anything's possible, but I doubt it.

 

[atlmd80]

Does anyone else notice that when an article critical of UAL is posted the author/poster is insulted. It would be refreshing to discuss the "facts"-as in the title of this thread. After reading the article I have a couple of questions:

1a)Does this request foreshadow a second half of 04 end to the UAL Bankruptcy?
1b)Does anyone think that UAL will get out of BK before July?
2)Is UAL running out of unrestricted cash?
3)Does the move by Moodys, to stop covering UAL debt, really amount to anything?
4)For the past months UAL execs have been saying that there are 4 things that need to be solved prior to BK exit-Aircraft leases,Gate leases, ATSB loan, employee pension. Have any of these problems been solved?

If possible please leave the attacks of Holly and Chip out of any response.

 

[Bear96]

Does anyone else notice that when an article critical of UAL is posted the author/poster is insulted.

As a UA employee, I have noticed this too. Aside from the extremism of a certain USAirways Captain, there are many legitimate issues to discuss in regards to UA's bankruptcy and (gasp) they might not all be positive good news all the time-- after all, we ARE in Chapter 11 for a reason!

We have been lucky the past few months to not do as badly as the nay-sayers predicted. But any UA employee who thinks there will still not be some major bumps in the road in the coming months, or who brushes off any bad news from a respected industry source as "misinformation," is probably going to be in for a rude awakening at some point in the near future.

(Granted Holly generally has a big chip on her shoulder about UA (HAHA just noticed the pun I inadvertently made )-- but she is also often right.)