Merger "facts"
- Thread starter Ukridge
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Ukridge
Senior
- Aug 27, 2002
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All right. This was not meant to start the same old fighting. I honestly meant it to spark comment on recent (and quite vociferous) "facts" that the United/USAirways merger was again on the table. If this is true then bring the evidence forth and let reasoned debate begin.
In my error, I read these posts and thought that in the twists and turns of your industry that something new had occured to elicit such comment. Well, it seems that it was just once again hot air emmanating from the secret sanctum of insider information.
Cheers
Bob Mayo on the keyboards. Bob Mayo.
In my error, I read these posts and thought that in the twists and turns of your industry that something new had occured to elicit such comment. Well, it seems that it was just once again hot air emmanating from the secret sanctum of insider information.
Cheers
Bob Mayo on the keyboards. Bob Mayo.
firstamendment
Veteran
- Apr 1, 2003
- 1,348
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Dlido....oh, I mean ditto.BoeingBoy said:
ETOPS1,
there is some validity to your statement but at the same time it appears that both USair management and Usair Pilot Union know that it is to their best interest to merge with United (rather than get chopped up in pieces by other carriers or stay as stand alone carrier) and
THEREFORE, are negotiating and directing all their efforts towards that goal.
Why do you think a certain Usair Captain is talking about it like a broken record.
No he is not part of ALPA (as a matter of fact they want nothing to do with him) but he is becoming a propaganda machine, on this forum anyways.
No hard feelings just facts.
<<WE ARE ALL IN THIS TOGETHER!!!!! >>
Oh really, not until there is a merger. Ever heard of competition. Look what Mexacana did recently. Part of Star, now AMRs partner. Just Business.
And one more thing, if Usair Pilots agree to anymore concessions, they have officially put pilot profession to a new low. All talk but bukling at the last moment. Just think about the Retirement Plan. Usair cancels it and no balls.
The best thing to happen is a strong Usair and a strong codeshare partner. No need for a merger. Usair is becoming more and more regionalized and thats a good thing for everyone. Unfortunately Usair Management team is still clueless and wants to be everything to everyone.
Good Luck
there is some validity to your statement but at the same time it appears that both USair management and Usair Pilot Union know that it is to their best interest to merge with United (rather than get chopped up in pieces by other carriers or stay as stand alone carrier) and
THEREFORE, are negotiating and directing all their efforts towards that goal.
Why do you think a certain Usair Captain is talking about it like a broken record.
No he is not part of ALPA (as a matter of fact they want nothing to do with him) but he is becoming a propaganda machine, on this forum anyways.
No hard feelings just facts.
<<WE ARE ALL IN THIS TOGETHER!!!!! >>
Oh really, not until there is a merger. Ever heard of competition. Look what Mexacana did recently. Part of Star, now AMRs partner. Just Business.
And one more thing, if Usair Pilots agree to anymore concessions, they have officially put pilot profession to a new low. All talk but bukling at the last moment. Just think about the Retirement Plan. Usair cancels it and no balls.
The best thing to happen is a strong Usair and a strong codeshare partner. No need for a merger. Usair is becoming more and more regionalized and thats a good thing for everyone. Unfortunately Usair Management team is still clueless and wants to be everything to everyone.
Good Luck
Reservation Agent
Senior
- Aug 23, 2002
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It seems to me that trying to re-do the US-UAL merger is a better idea than letting American Airlines buy valuable parts of USAIRWAYS...
Reports on the USAIRWAYS web board says that newspaper articles have reported interest in buying parts of USAIRWAYS including the New York-Boston-Washington shuttle by American Airlines...Other names mentioned in buying parts of USAIRWAYS thru broker Morgan Stanley are Delta & JetBlue and Richard Branson for Virgin America....
Expanded coesharing between Delta, Contiential and Northwest have now been announced, too....
Reports on the USAIRWAYS web board says that newspaper articles have reported interest in buying parts of USAIRWAYS including the New York-Boston-Washington shuttle by American Airlines...Other names mentioned in buying parts of USAIRWAYS thru broker Morgan Stanley are Delta & JetBlue and Richard Branson for Virgin America....
Expanded coesharing between Delta, Contiential and Northwest have now been announced, too....
ETOPS...valid point. We aren't mad at each other, but a certain person on the "US Team" spouts off this merger on one hand then spouts off about the horrible business that the "US business partner" is. If anyone is attacking, it's not the "US business partner" people. You are correct that this will be decided by the higher ups and we will go whichever way we are steered but, for what it's worth, I have a close relative in that group and according to him........"US is a Star Alliance partner and we wish them the best. United must concentrate on making United strong, with our own people and our own routes. We won't be merging with anyone until all our people are back working."
Think about it....if the situation were reversed, would US air want to merge with United? Until United can fix things over here, we can't afford to add anymore uncertainty into the mix (and a merger, with ALL that entails, would definitely add uncertainty) Heck, with the "fun" work rules we now live under, seems that United is trying to work the old folks OUT, not merge to bring more old folks IN.
Think about it....if the situation were reversed, would US air want to merge with United? Until United can fix things over here, we can't afford to add anymore uncertainty into the mix (and a merger, with ALL that entails, would definitely add uncertainty) Heck, with the "fun" work rules we now live under, seems that United is trying to work the old folks OUT, not merge to bring more old folks IN.
see, its idiotic comments like that that i hate, why all the hate towards u employees. " we don't need u employees." well buddy, don't really want you neither.
Just business.If you cant pull out of your tailspin hopefully when can get some goodies before you guys auger in...
Just business.If you cant pull out of your tailspin hopefully when can get some goodies before you guys auger in...
I do not like to see this discussed in public due to the apprehension and uncertainty that it causes for all employees involved.
A merge between UAL and UAIR makes a lot of sense from a synergistic point of view; very little overlap and it would allow the combined company to have a controlling marketshare in many cities with large O&D traffic. UAL has already done most of the groundwork for a merge; they merely need to dust off all of the data collected from 2000/2001.
For my fellow UAL employees, I request that we avoid taking snipes at our brothers and sisters at UAIR. Think back to UAL's darkest days (not so long ago) where a prolific poster speculated on the fragmentation of UAL. Let's not treat the fine employees of UAIR with the same disrespect. This is all well above anyone on this board's paygrade.
In spite of my previous statement, I'll weigh in on a possible scenario where I would anticipate a merge between UAL and UAIR. I have absolutely no inside information and am merely speculating on what I anticipate happening.
During the last merge attempt, management tried to sell the merge (to congress, DOJ) as one where there would be no jobs lost. I don't anticipate management taking that path this time around. Instead, I expect UAL to attempt to acquire most of UAIR; UAL's selling point to the ATSB is that it will protect the ATSB's $900 mil loan guarantee. I would not anticipate much (any) DOJ attempts to block a merge this time around, even if UAL tries to take a larger slice of UAIR's system (ie DCA) than in the previous merge attempt.
UAL will need to emerge from chap 11 prior to any merge. How will they have the additional cash on hand to make this happen? Current cash on hand $2.4 bil ($679 mil restricted), a $2.0 bil loan from JP Morgan and Citigroup. Correct me if I'm wrong on this Busdrvr, but weren't JPM and C willing to do the entire $2 bil all by themselves? If that's the case, I wouldn't be surprised to see UAL get another $2 bil line of credit from JPM and C. That would give UAL $6.4 bil available minus DIP loans of ~$700 mil = $5.7 bil.
Since a merge would not take place prior to UAL's emergence from Chap 11, UAIR will likely have to sell some assets. I would anticipate UAIR selling one or all of its regional subdivisions, since UAL will sell those anyway once a merge is completed. That would allow U to have enough cash on hand to meet June ATSB requirements.
I'd expect UAL to keep most of U's mainline operations, including the shuttle, DCA, PHL, LGA, BOS, CLT, and the caribbean intact. PIT will be severely downsized.
Now the ugly part ... seniority merge. (I expect this to go down along lines similar to AMR/TWA).
For the mechanics, I don't know how AMFA deals with mergers; it will probably be a dovetail where UAIR employees lose significant seniority. I don't know how many mechanics UAL currently has on the street, but I'd anticipate AMFA wanting all of them recalled (with a commensurate furloughing of UAIR mechanics).
For the pilots, ALPA uses career expectations. With UAIR no longer having a pension (I expect UAL to keep all pensions intact), there will be arguments that UAL's pilots have significantly higher career expectations. I anticipate dovetailing with a significant portion of UAIR's pilots stapled to the bottom. With ~25% of UAL's pilots currently on furlough, I anticipate UAL's pilots to be adament about getting those of us on the street back on the payroll. I realize that UAIR's pilots have taken a huge hit also (somewhere ~33%), but I would not be surprised to see another 1000 UAIR pilots furloughed after the merge.
For the FAs, things get sticky. Current AFA guidelines call for DOH. Either UAL's FAs will need to break away from AFA soon, there will need to be a waiver of DOH by U's FAs, or UAL's FAs will have to be thrown a very large one time compensation package to accept DOH. UAL is currently recalling FAs who are on VLOA (voluntary leave of absence); however, a DOH merge could result in some of UAL's FAs being involuntarily furloughed while recalling UAIR FAs.
My apologies to anyone who is offended or apprehensive due to this post. It is merely my opinion; I have no inside sources that would lend credence to my post.
To everyone at UAIR, all the best. It is a very stressful time for UAL employees and I am sure that it is the same over there. I would prefer to see UAIR as a strong * alliance partner than merging the two companies.
A merge between UAL and UAIR makes a lot of sense from a synergistic point of view; very little overlap and it would allow the combined company to have a controlling marketshare in many cities with large O&D traffic. UAL has already done most of the groundwork for a merge; they merely need to dust off all of the data collected from 2000/2001.
For my fellow UAL employees, I request that we avoid taking snipes at our brothers and sisters at UAIR. Think back to UAL's darkest days (not so long ago) where a prolific poster speculated on the fragmentation of UAL. Let's not treat the fine employees of UAIR with the same disrespect. This is all well above anyone on this board's paygrade.
In spite of my previous statement, I'll weigh in on a possible scenario where I would anticipate a merge between UAL and UAIR. I have absolutely no inside information and am merely speculating on what I anticipate happening.
During the last merge attempt, management tried to sell the merge (to congress, DOJ) as one where there would be no jobs lost. I don't anticipate management taking that path this time around. Instead, I expect UAL to attempt to acquire most of UAIR; UAL's selling point to the ATSB is that it will protect the ATSB's $900 mil loan guarantee. I would not anticipate much (any) DOJ attempts to block a merge this time around, even if UAL tries to take a larger slice of UAIR's system (ie DCA) than in the previous merge attempt.
UAL will need to emerge from chap 11 prior to any merge. How will they have the additional cash on hand to make this happen? Current cash on hand $2.4 bil ($679 mil restricted), a $2.0 bil loan from JP Morgan and Citigroup. Correct me if I'm wrong on this Busdrvr, but weren't JPM and C willing to do the entire $2 bil all by themselves? If that's the case, I wouldn't be surprised to see UAL get another $2 bil line of credit from JPM and C. That would give UAL $6.4 bil available minus DIP loans of ~$700 mil = $5.7 bil.
Since a merge would not take place prior to UAL's emergence from Chap 11, UAIR will likely have to sell some assets. I would anticipate UAIR selling one or all of its regional subdivisions, since UAL will sell those anyway once a merge is completed. That would allow U to have enough cash on hand to meet June ATSB requirements.
I'd expect UAL to keep most of U's mainline operations, including the shuttle, DCA, PHL, LGA, BOS, CLT, and the caribbean intact. PIT will be severely downsized.
Now the ugly part ... seniority merge. (I expect this to go down along lines similar to AMR/TWA).
For the mechanics, I don't know how AMFA deals with mergers; it will probably be a dovetail where UAIR employees lose significant seniority. I don't know how many mechanics UAL currently has on the street, but I'd anticipate AMFA wanting all of them recalled (with a commensurate furloughing of UAIR mechanics).
For the pilots, ALPA uses career expectations. With UAIR no longer having a pension (I expect UAL to keep all pensions intact), there will be arguments that UAL's pilots have significantly higher career expectations. I anticipate dovetailing with a significant portion of UAIR's pilots stapled to the bottom. With ~25% of UAL's pilots currently on furlough, I anticipate UAL's pilots to be adament about getting those of us on the street back on the payroll. I realize that UAIR's pilots have taken a huge hit also (somewhere ~33%), but I would not be surprised to see another 1000 UAIR pilots furloughed after the merge.
For the FAs, things get sticky. Current AFA guidelines call for DOH. Either UAL's FAs will need to break away from AFA soon, there will need to be a waiver of DOH by U's FAs, or UAL's FAs will have to be thrown a very large one time compensation package to accept DOH. UAL is currently recalling FAs who are on VLOA (voluntary leave of absence); however, a DOH merge could result in some of UAL's FAs being involuntarily furloughed while recalling UAIR FAs.
My apologies to anyone who is offended or apprehensive due to this post. It is merely my opinion; I have no inside sources that would lend credence to my post.
To everyone at UAIR, all the best. It is a very stressful time for UAL employees and I am sure that it is the same over there. I would prefer to see UAIR as a strong * alliance partner than merging the two companies.
savyinvestor
Senior
- Jan 15, 2003
- 494
- 0
Wow what a thouhgtful post on a delicate subject explained in such a way that shouldn't get anyone's nose out of joint! Well done! Savy
Ok....here goes.....United this time last year had one leg firmly planted in the grave and the other one was falling in fast. Thanks to the dedication and sacrifces of ALL the employees, United looks much healthier this January and there are hopes that they will emerge mid year. Again, my cousin has stated that no merger will happen (but heck, he could be full of it...happens) Regardless of how much EVERY work group works...if the flight attendants treat passengers like crap, they won't fly United. End of Story!
Right now the AFA is mighty pissed off about the medical benefits and they are so vocal that Tilton has shut his email down because the flight attendants are filling it relentlessly. Of course the AFA is most concerned with themselves, they would never encourage the flight attendants to do anything that might mean one less dues paying member, but from what I see and hear on the line....if the talks start up again you can guess what the flight attendants plan to do. The flight attendants have nothing to lose, so why should we care? The U contract differs from the United contract in that the U f/a are protected from furlough, yet the UAL f/a's are not. Soooo, we could all lose our jobs if this merger happens. Not trying to flame here folks but the flight attendants will do everything in there power to make sure no merger happens (everything) There would be NO incentive to keep it going and the talks alone would probably spell the end.
Again, I've been personally assured that a merger is not something in the works...but you know how crazy this business is. (btw, I told him what would happen if it did...he shook his head and said "I know")
Go ahead, say that's selfish of us, but think about it...would you just happily leave your job so that I could have one?
Right now the AFA is mighty pissed off about the medical benefits and they are so vocal that Tilton has shut his email down because the flight attendants are filling it relentlessly. Of course the AFA is most concerned with themselves, they would never encourage the flight attendants to do anything that might mean one less dues paying member, but from what I see and hear on the line....if the talks start up again you can guess what the flight attendants plan to do. The flight attendants have nothing to lose, so why should we care? The U contract differs from the United contract in that the U f/a are protected from furlough, yet the UAL f/a's are not. Soooo, we could all lose our jobs if this merger happens. Not trying to flame here folks but the flight attendants will do everything in there power to make sure no merger happens (everything) There would be NO incentive to keep it going and the talks alone would probably spell the end.
Again, I've been personally assured that a merger is not something in the works...but you know how crazy this business is. (btw, I told him what would happen if it did...he shook his head and said "I know")
Go ahead, say that's selfish of us, but think about it...would you just happily leave your job so that I could have one?
one flaw in this pretty good letter. career expectations aren't based soley on a retirement plan. UAL's plan is THE big sticking point in the chp. 11 exit. what will happen in 2006 when the big bill is due?iflyjetz said:
hopefully, Bush will veto the pension legislation just passed.
