Mechanics turn down the concessions.

[airknocker]

Sounds like the IAM, once again, has been shown the error of it's ways and will dispel the confusion clouding the members eyes. At U, been there, done that. All the handwringing by UAL employees was wasted energy, you'll get your giveback package, the IAM will see to that and then you join the other members of the Chapter 11 Club. Good Luck!!!

 

[Busdrvr]

[blockquote]
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On 11/30/2002 1:38:20 AM mancityfan wrote:

[blockquote]
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On 11/29/2002 1028 PM Busdrvr wrote:

I am not privy to the details, so I cannot comment from a position of fact.

NO KIDDING
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[/blockquote]

Hey, BusDrvr (or is it GuppyDrvr now?),

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[/blockquote]

GuppyDrvr, prob soon to be Chevette driver. I voted for my own furlough. I guess I could have been a moron who thought after a few testosterone laced sessions of hearts in the breakroom between the hectic banks of depatures, that my tattoed buddy with the GED knows more about the real company finances than does EVERY other person in america, but silly me, the annual reports, SEC filings and quarterly reports, followed by actually LISTENING to Glenn Tilton speak, unfortunately convinced me that there was indeed a need and that if we restructure outside of court, ol Glenn is the right man with a plan to lead this company back to prosperity. I guess most of the mechanics can also take those high paying jobs in finance on Wall Street, they seem to have it all figured out.

 

[AAmech]

[blockquote]
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On 11/28/2002 8:18:20 AM JFK777 wrote:

.

Some factions have argued to sell some of the international routes. Are DAL or AA in any shape to pay a billion dollars for the Tokyo hub? Not today. Would AA really be interested? They now fly to NRT from SJC, DFW, ORD, JFK & in 4/03 from LAX. IF they bought UA's NRT they would gain SEA & SFO, two cities not core to AA operations. They would gain frequency from places like ORD, JFK and LAX & beyond rights (if the Japanesse let them transfer) but I don't think these traffic rights today are worth a billion dollars.

.
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[/blockquote]
You are correct that AA or DAL just do not have the cash to pick up UAL's NRT hub (unless they sell it at a fire sale). But you're forgeting one thing UAL has the coveted 5th Freedom rights. That allows them to stop in NRT and continue on to other countries making their Asia flights much more profitable than AA's who's flights must turn around and return to the US.

 

[wts54]

From www.the-mechanic.com


Received: 11/29/02 1526 EST
Name: 727pilot
E-Mail:
Employer: ual
Location: n.e.
Message:
Hey ual amts, great job.... you really stuck it to us pilots. Must make you feel real proud. You can tell all your friends and family how the ual amts really stood for something, not everyone can claim they brought down a large company to its knees, forcing bankruptcy, destroying families and lives for the reasons you guys did. Al-Qaida can take a terrorism lesson from you.I understand your unhappy at Ual and rather than quit and find employment elsewhere you'd rather put 75000 people out of work because you have principles. Well, better hope I'm not standing behind you on the unemployment line, {and don't think for a second anyone in their right mind would hire you guys after this stunt}because after I loose everything I think I'll demonstrate some of my principles...batter up.




Do you remember the summer of 2000? Hey UAL pilots great job, you really stuck to all of us at UAL. Rather than quit and finding employment elsewhere you'd rather piss off our customers and waste 700 million dollars. Principles??

 

[Busdrvr]

[blockquote]
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On 11/30/2002 1047 AM wts54 wrote:

Do you remember the summer of 2000? Hey UAL pilots great job, you really stuck to all of us at UAL. Rather than quit and finding employment elsewhere you'd rather piss off our customers and waste 700 million dollars. Principles??


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[/blockquote]

It's stements like that that show the pure lunacy of the rank and file of the 141M. If, while the company is rolling in the dough to the tune of approx 1.6 billion a year, be my guest if you need to take action, including going on strike, to become industry leading. I'll support you 100%. However, when the company is literally DAYS away from chap 11, you would be a COMPLETE moron to play the games the 141M is currently playing. Enjoy the lack of retirement benefits your brothers just in effect voted you WTS. Maybe there will be a few free clinics nearby. Good luck! Maybe MasterMechanic will help you pay the bills with all his vast business interests. Somehow, I'll no longer feel sorry for the 1/2 to 3/4s of the mechanics who WILL lose thier jobs shortly after filinfg and abrogation. The company has ALREADY bargained in good faith, you have not. If there is one bad trait in Mr Tilton, I think it's that he is one vindictive old coot. If you have any doubts, call the eye-on -ua and listen to his weekly message.

 

[Busdrvr]

[blockquote]
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On 11/30/2002 10:15:03 AM DB Cooper wrote:

Sorry, Mr. Canale , the IAM can't have it both ways. The 141M leadership endorsed/recommended the current mechanics agreement which permits 20% OSV farmout of mechanics work. Perhaps those "no voters" you targeted in your letter would not be faced with layoffs if your colleague Mr. Ford had secured iron clad job security provisions beyond LOA 94-5 . After the first PEB was rejected, many aspects of that agreement were negotiable.
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[/blockquote]

You are playing russian roulette with a semi automatic. but I only put one bullet in the clip. Maybe Mr Canale knows one heck of a lot more about internal company finances and time lines than you do. If you're gonna be furloughed, it'd be nice to have a job to come back to one day.

 

[wts54]

What timeline, the bankruptcy deadline ? Looks similar to a floating
holiday it just keeps moving further ahead as time goes by.

 

[synchronicity]

[blockquote]
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On 11/30/2002 11:29:32 AM wts54 wrote:

What timeline, the bankruptcy deadline ? Looks similar to a floating
holiday it just keeps moving further ahead as time goes by.
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[/blockquote]

The BK deadline, realistically, is the weekend before Monday, December 16. UAL bought themselves considerable extra time by restructuring 500 million in debt to the German bank KfW, 300 Million of which was due November 17 and 200 Million of which was coming due on December 2.

UAL has a 375 Million debt due on Monday, December 2. However, this debt has a 10 business day grace period that pushes the final date for payment back to Monday, December 16. As things stand now, UAL would not be able to make that payment without pushing its cash reserves down to levels that would not allow for day to day operations of the airline. (You can do some of the math yourself if you like: about 7M in losses per day times about 75 days by mid December, plus payments of 415M in debt [40M paid on bond debt plus the 375M due by Dec. 16], that gives a total of 940M cash expenditures out of a total of 1.6B in unrestricted cash at the beginning of the quarter. That would bring cash under 700M and shrinking further every day after that).

I'd also add that, IIRC, the first retro payment falls due on December 15. Since that is a Sunday, my guess is that the first payment would be paid on Monday, December 16. The oft-quoted comment of we already gave up 500M may become a self-fulfilling prophecy. All District 141 and 141-M members are about to wear two hats in BK, as both employees and secured creditors. It appears that it will be a while before you see the retro payments.

My guess is that UAL will file for BK the weekend before December 16, but they may file earlier depending on A) how discussions continue with their lenders, and B) discussions with District 141-M.

Along those lines, what would UAL have to offer in an agreement for IAM 141-M to accept it. Some of you may have the attitude of we're not making ANY concessions, while some of you may be saying just get rid of the unpaid 4 days of vacation or whatever. I'm just curious what would make for an acceptable agreement in your eyes. Maybe I should start a new topic on this.

 

[Bob Owens]

Mancityfan;
As I'm sure your aware there is a lot more to a contract than wage rates. The offer still stands. What have you got to hide? Do I expect to make as much as a Pilot? No. But some pilots need to be reminded that they too are just employees. You've done a good job marketing yourselves but that doesn’t mean that you should tell mechanics what they should do, you’re not in the military anymore.

Give me a copy of what the pilots are getting then we can compare. It’s not a question of killing the company. Do you feel that United’s crisis will last until 2008? If so then you should just start looking for another job now. If the crisis may be over by this time next year why should anyone agree to 6 years of concessions? Oh Yea, the ATSB. How convenient. The ATSB is a scam that is capitalizing on the current crisis to lower wages and you’re falling for it.

However, I am a 737 Captain, and will be going (it looks like, based ont he 49 aircraft we are grounding and the ones we have already parked) to the 767 F/O seat from whence I came three years ago. I will take a $71.05 per hour pay cut. We have a 75 hour guarantee, so that works out to $64K. I will also take a $7,034 per year cut in my retirement that I will NEVER EVER GET BACK. So, that is a $71K+ cut. And I can assure you, it WILL make a HUGE difference in my life for the full term of the contract! It is ALMOST HALF of my current pay or about two-thirds of my new pay! With the aircraft orders gone, the RJs proliferating, and the Star Alliance taking over many of the intl routes, I can guarantee you there will be an absolute minimum of seat movement over the term of this contract. In fact, it is already written into our scope agreement that the fleet WILL shrink!

I will be the first;
DONT COMPLAIN, YOU VOTED FOR THIS! Get used to it because you are going to be hearing it for the next six, possibly eight or even ten, years.

Believe me when I say NO-ONE is making out on this deal. Person for person, the pilots, who I grant you make more pay, are making a CONSIDERABLY BIGGER CONTRIBUTION IN BOTH PERCENTAGE AND DOLLAR TERMS than ANY other group. ANY!

Trust me some people are set to make out very well if this deal goes through, just not the employees of UAL or any other airline. As far as the pilots giving more the fact is they will still be getting more and they have more to lose. The fact is the pilots’ financial fate is more deeply tied to Uniteds survival than the mechanics financial fate. Apparently the majority of the mechanics realized that they had more to lose by voting YES to 6 more years of concessions so they voted NO. If you guys want to save the company so badly then you come up with the extra $600 million, even at that the average pilot will still be making more than the top paid mechanic. Then you can get all their profit sharing and stock options! If the company recovers you will make out like bandits and all they will get is their paychecks.

Also, while we are at it, I would be interested to know how many of the 8,800 pilots left at UAL are making anything CLOSE to $300K? Get real!

I said, So the few pilots that actually see a real pay cut after the 6 year contract will be a handful of the top paid pilots that are still around. I realize that only a few make the top rate.

I honestly think that UAL will tell the judge that the IAM has a seat on the BOD, that they have known the numbers all along, and their participation in the union coalition, and the resultant T/A, was an indication that they understood both the need and the urgency. UAL has simply run out of money. Then, the judge will retire to his chambers, read the company proposal to save what little is left that is not already mortgaged or leveraged to the hilt, and he will ALLOW the company (and creditor committee) to proceed with their plans.

And the mechanics will be free to Strike, work to rule or utilize any other form of self-help they desire, and so will the company. Then the games will begin.


Or better yet, call your buddies at USAir, I am sure they ALL know by now!

Ah yes, they agreed to concessions and guess what? Less than 1Qtr into the deal and the company has come back for more. What do you think UAL will be doing? Pretty soon you will think that you are flying an RJ when you look at your paycheck.
Look, I don’t want to see you guys get hammered. To tell the truth I like the fact that the guy flying is someone who made the cut and is well paid. It inspires confidence and allows me to relax. You guys seem to have unusual contracts; some things work out in your favor some don’t. I'd rather have a defined career path, I want to know what I'm going to make and when I'm going to make it. I put in 40 hours I get paid for 40.You guys leave a lot to chance and if your lucky you can hit the jackpot of that $300K or whatever it is job working 50 hours a month but getting paid for 75. In the meantime you fly your buts off for years, spending weeks out of the month on the road but only getting paid for flight time, making much, much less than that top figure. But everyone assumes that you all make that top figure, maybe its good for picking up chicks that people think that way but it can at times work against you, like now.
I'm a mechanic; I know that if the mechanics at United accept this deal it will sweep through the industry. I've got 22 years (25 if you count school) in this industry and last year was the first time I felt that we were fairly paid. The old timers used to talk about how they used to pay off SS by September at the latest, I’ve only paid it off once, in December. Mechanics have given the industry an increase in productivity of over 30% over the last twenty years and up until our last contract we have worked under concessionary agreements since 1983. After such a long trek to reach a decent rate of pay I would rather throw it all away and start a new career than start going backwards again.

 

[wts54]

Nobody at UAL except Tilton should make more
than 200,000.00 a year not a pilot or mechanic.
Everybody pilots,f/a's,mechanics should all work
either 40hr week,or their limit set by FAA.

 

[Bob Owens]

Why should Tilton get it?

 

[Busdrvr]

[blockquote]
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On 11/30/2002 3:05:59 PM Bob Owens wrote:

Why should Tilton get it?
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[/blockquote]

Nobody deserves their pay but poor little you....Grow Up

 

[ual06]

Hey guys and gals, lets give Bob a break. He knows good and well that regardless of what happens at UAL; that he is getting close to the front of the line to receive the same. He is scared.

 

[atabuy]

[blockquote]
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On 11/30/2002 7:56:34 PM ual06 wrote:

Hey guys and gals, lets give Bob a break. He knows good and well that regardless of what happens at UAL; that he is getting close to the front of the line to receive the same. He is scared.
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[/blockquote]

You can't blame Bob for doing what he is. Everyone is motivated by self interest to get what they want.
It is just a shame that 6,000 mechanics can make it bad for 100,000 workers who stand to lose well over $120,000,000 plus what folks have in retirement funds.
The worst part is they are taking themselves out at the same time. I know they are mad at the situation we are in right now, but to ruin others lives to feel a little bit of satisfaction at taking down a company is going too far.

If this happens I wonder what repercussions will be inflicted upon mechanics for years to come.

You see, although mechanics feel they have been screwed by management, how would you like to be screwed by a union brother. I think there will be trouble.

There won't be a union who will protect them from what others might do.
I already heard of fights breaking out. People being fired for fighting. How would you like to have 20, 25, 30 years and be fired for fighting.
Or be treated like the plague and never know what your car will look like when you come out of work. You know how those little dents can annoy you.
You guys have proved a point. I hope you are willing to accept the consequences.
You're not just messing with the company anymore. Now you are messing with your co-workers money.
Please don't take this as a threat from me. I would never do anything like that. It just occurred to me when I heard of the fights and thought you might not have thought this the whole way through. I don't know why I think you didn't. You guys are smatter than that.

 

[atabuy]

I just listened to Mr. Tilton, and he dosen't sound very happy.
He said the rejection was a big blow against securing the loan but stressed it is necessary to live up to our committment of concessions.
He also said we can do this in or out of bk but there would be less challenges out of bk for all of us.
You can hear it on 1 800 eye on ua 1 800 393 6682