mechanics lose in court

[j7915]

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On 7/11/2003 10:15:52 AM Buck wrote:

Where is the almighty AFL-CIO?

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A better question is why are so many "proud upstanding union" folks voting Republican?

 

[jake]

Buck,
There is no secrecy! The TWU website is designed for dues paying members in good standing, which you and Dave are not. All the information is posted for our member’s benefit and use. I had no problem accessing all the information for any of the facts that I have presented on this board. You (and your fellow stooges), on the other hand make allegations without presenting documentation to prove anything. I have made the challenge to them, and now to you Buck. Get something to prove me wrong. Get a judge or lawyer to tell us that we’d have been better off forcing this company into bankruptcy. Let’s compare how many lost jobs there are at Northwest, what are the effects at United due to agreeing to a contract under the 1113 provisions? Tell us which airlines have gone into bankruptcy and didn’t get exactly what they asked for from the court

 

[jake]

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On 7/11/2003 9:35:47 AM Hopeful wrote:

Jake:

You may see things differently when AA announces its next "Major" restructuring phase. Elimination of more flights and jobs along with grounding of more aircraft might top the "alternative" to bankruptcy.

Face facts, American broke the unions once and for all. Now that they have their 5 year deal, you will see more and more outsourcing and reduction in size. American said they needed the concessions to avoid bankruptcy or else more desperate measures will be taken. Well guess what? They threatened workers with that alternative and like suckers we bought into it however narrow the votes were. Now they will proceed with those very measures they said they needed to avooid CH 11.

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Hopeful and Buck,
No one, I said NO ONE, likes the current state of our industry. I never made the claim that American would not or could not seek further remedies. However, we have a long way to go before we get to the point where we have given up as much work and as many people as the others carriers have that your “eliteâ€￾ AMFA represents. When thousands of people start hitting the streets directly because of work that has been outsourced, will you let me know?

 

[FWAAA]

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On 7/11/2003 3:42:15 PM jake wrote:

Buck,
There is no secrecy! The TWU website is designed for dues paying members in good standing, which you and Dave are not. All the information is posted for our member’s benefit and use. I had no problem accessing all the information for any of the facts that I have presented on this board. You (and your fellow stooges), on the other hand make allegations without presenting documentation to prove anything. I have made the challenge to them, and now to you Buck. Get something to prove me wrong. Get a judge or lawyer to tell us that we’d have been better off forcing this company into bankruptcy. Let’s compare how many lost jobs there are at Northwest, what are the effects at United due to agreeing to a contract under the 1113 provisions? Tell us which airlines have gone into bankruptcy and didn’t get exactly what they asked for from the court


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You know that lawyers and judges can''t be trusted, don''t you?

Each work group''s legal and financial advisors counseled the employees that they would likely fare far worse if AA filed Ch 11, but everyone here just keeps repeating the dubious "fact" that UAL''s mechanics gave up less in bankruptcy than the TWU gave up at AA without bankruptcy.

UAL no longer performs any heavy overhaul - having closed OAK and IND, laying off thousands of mechanics. But the retort is that the remaining mechanics didn''t give up five vacation days or some sick time.

Better to protect the profession, since things will eventually get back to normal, they say. Wage concessions now will ruin all of labor''s historical gains forever, they say.

The employees of AMR could have bought control of the company for about $100 million in March of this year. Had they done that, they would be up about 800% right now and they could decide their own fate.

For an average of $1,000 per employee, these people could have bought control of their employer and elected their own directors and hired their own management.

But they were too busy with voting do-overs and worrying about vacation days and underfly and management pensions and all the other trivial matters to take advantage of a once in a lifetime opportunity to better themselves. Too bad for them.

They could have bought control of the world''s largest airline for an average of $1,000 each.

Instead, they ended up with a pittance of stock options.

Hey whiners: On Monday you all could buy the same stake in the company for an average of about $9,000 each.

If I ran a union of highly paid employees like the TWU, I would have already organized that effort. The pilots and FAs listened to presentations about buying the company - did the TWU?

 

[RV4]

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On 7/11/2003 3:42:15 PM jake wrote:

Get a judge or lawyer to tell us that we’d have been better off forcing this company into bankruptcy. Let’s compare how many lost jobs there are at Northwest, what are the effects at United due to agreeing to a contract under the 1113 provisions? Tell us which airlines have gone into bankruptcy and didn’t get exactly what they asked for from the court


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OK so nobody can prove we would have faired any better in Bankruptcy and thus this concession has your power excuse.

Can you explain the B-Scale Concession of 1983?
Can you explain the 6 month probation concession of 1985?
Can you explain the Flex Benefits Concession of 1989?
Can you explain the SRP Payrate Concession of 1995?

And after ALL those concession we still get concession extortion in 2003?

Jake,
How many times and where do you draw the line on worker concessions to fund a mis-managed highly competetive industry?


Union Workers Urged to Oppose American Contract
By Frank Main
Section: news
Edition: FINAL HOME EDITION
Page: a2
Date:March 8, 1989
Estimated Printed Pages: 2

Index Terms:
airlines
unions
Article Text:
American Airlines mechanics and ground workers in Tulsa
were told Sunday to follow the leaders of their union and vote down a proposed $610 million management contract, officials said.
Leaders of the Transport Workers Union of America rejected the offer on Tuesday, opting to hold out for a requested
$900 million package, said David Kruse, American's vice
president of maintenance and engineering.

Ed Wilson, president of Local 514, which represents about 4,300 Tulsa workers and 2,200 in other cities, announced
Sunday the union would mail ballots to members March 13.
"We'll count the ballots on April Fool's Day," Wilson
said to the cheers of workers after one of two closed-door sessions Sunday at the Brady Theater, 105 W. Brady St.
The airline's offer would raise the annual salary of starting mechanics from $23,900 to $32,677, officials say.
"I don't understand how they could say our offer is not competitive," Kruse said Sunday in a telephone interview.
The contract between the Transport Workers Union of America and American Airlines expired Wednesday. The union represents about 11,000 of the airline's 60,000 workers.

Wilson said the sticking points of the offer include health benefits, a progressive pay scale and starting pay. He said the pay proposed by the company is lower than industry levels.

Wilson said the union would negotiate on the pay scale and starting salary, but not on the proposal to shift payments on health insurance payments from the company to workers.
Under the proposal, workers would share in monthly insurance payments, starting in 1991, Kruse said.

Wilson said the union would refuse to submit to arbitration if an agreement cannot be reached.
About 3,100 workers attended the two meetings Sunday, Wilson said. More meetings will be held throughout the week at
the union hall to inform the rest of the other workers,
he said.

Record Number: TUL12666

 

[RV4]

Tulsa Mechanics, AA Dispute Hires
By Melanie Busch
Section: BUSINESS
Edition: FINAL HOME EDITION
Page: E1
Estimated Printed Pages: 2

Index Terms:
AVIATION
Article Text:
The hiring of lesser skilled maintenance personnel at American Airlines'' maintenance and engineering base in Tulsa has prompted the Transport Workers Union to file a contract grievance with the Fort Worth-based carrier.
The union disagrees with the company''s hiring of shop repair personnel instead of licensed mechanics in some of the base''s 35 shops where workers repair American''s fleet at Tulsa International Airport.
Though the union agreed to "reclassification" in some shops during contract negotiations last year, it did not agree to the hiring of the lesser skilled workers in some of the shops where they are now being hired, said Marion Finley, president of the TWU Local 514, which represents about 5,400 American mechanics in Tulsa.
"It''s just an interpretation problem," he said.
An outside arbitrator, William Eaton, will hold a hearing Sept. 10-11. His decision is final and binding.
American has been hiring repair personnel, some holding mechanic''s licenses, in jobs that are easier to learn, that are not as closely supervised and that are repetitive, American spokesman John Hotard said.
"They''ve reached a point where American thinks these new hires could be used in shops where the TWU believes you should still use (licensed) mechanics in those positions," he said. "The issue is not ... who do we hire to fill that job, but how many jobs fall under the category of a shop repair person or a (licensed) mechanic."
Line mechanics now start at $13.40 an hour, while repair personnel start at $9 an hour.
Finley downplayed the dispute, saying the union has filed several grievances with American since the contract was approved in November. However, the current grievance is the first to directly impact Tulsa maintenance workers, he said.
Under the current contract, amendable in the year 2000, American reclassified some TWU positions, separating lesser skilled positions from highly skilled positions. The airline is allowed to pay less for the positions requiring less skill.
The old contract grouped a wide range of jobs into a job classification with one pay scale, whereas the new one created lower pay classifications for lower skill tasks.
Hotard said the reclassification was "the thrust of the new contract. We could hire certain jobs out where you wouldn''t have to have your (airplane mechanic''s) license."
The company has hired fewer than 100 shop repair personnel with whom the union disagrees with, Finley said. The union accepts another 600 repair personnel hired since November, he said.
The union decided to file the grievance because it believes American will hire many more repair personnel.
"It takes away jobs from mechanics," Finley said. "But there haven''t been any mechanics laid off because of this."
Though the contract gives American the right to hire some shop repair personnel, it also guarantees current TWU members the same job and pay scale they now have.
American has contracts with three labor groups, including pilots and flight attendants.
Last fall, American announced it would hire 1,050 workers, mostly mechanics, at the Tulsa base through 1997, and recall another 529 furloughed mechanics.
Record Number: TUL582498


October 17, 1996

Earnings Fly High At AMR
By Bloomberg Service
Section: BUSINESS
Edition: FINAL HOME EDITION
Page: E1
Estimated Printed Pages: 2
Article Text:
FORT WORTH, Texas -- AMR Corp. said earnings increased a better-than-expected 21 percent in the third quarter, as rising costs for jet fuel were partially offset by higher fares and stronger demand for air travel.
The parent of American Airlines had net income of $282 million, or $3.06 a share, up from year-earlier profit from operations of $233 million, or $3.01. Shares outstanding increased 19 percent.
Wall Street expected Fort Worth-based AMR to earn $3.01, based on the average estimate of 13 analysts surveyed by IBES International Inc.
Revenue rose 2.6 percent to $4.56 billion from $4.45 billion.
In the year-ago period, a charge of $4 million, or 5 cents, made net $229 million, or $2.96.
AMR shares fell 11/8 Wednesday, closing at 817/8.
Costs at the airline are still higher than the company would like, said Robert Crandall, AMR chairman and chief executive. Strong demand, higher fares and expansion of non-airline businesses helped offset a surge in fuel prices, he said.
A jump in oil prices sent the cost of jet fuel up 19 percent from the year-ago period. Crude oil is trading at about $25 a barrel, up from about $17 a year ago.
"Fuel prices obviously hurt somewhat and we''re not looking at any decreases soon," said Vivian Lee, an analyst at BT Securities in New York.
American''s load factor, the percentage of seats filled, rose to 71.1 percent from 68.9. Passenger revenue yield, the amount each passenger pays to fly one mile, rose to 12.71 cents from 12.45 cents.
After the summer travel season, however, revenue passenger miles slipped 4.2 percent in September from the year-ago month and the load factor was steady at 65 percent.
Profit at AMR''s airline group rose 44 percent to $371 million as revenue rose 2.1 percent to $4.17 billion.
The SABRE Group, AMR''s technology unit that was partially spun off to investors earlier this month, had profit of $74 million, down 32 percent. Revenue rose 3.8 percent to $408 million.
At the management services group, profit rose 19 percent to $19 million and revenue gained 9 percent to $158 million.
In the nine months ended Sept. 30, AMR earned $732 million,
Record Number: TUL588621


October 30, 1996

American Eyes Big Airplane Order
By From staff, wire reports
Section: BUSINESS
Edition: FINAL HOME EDITION
Page: E1
Estimated Printed Pages: 2

Index Terms:
AVIATION
Article Text:
FORT WORTH, Texas -- American Airlines wants to buy at least 100 new jets worth more than $10 billion and is in talks with the Boeing Co. about an order, people familiar with the airline said.
The order would represent the largest purchase for American in more than a decade and could mark a resumption of the expansion it pursued in the 1980s, when it rose from a second-tier carrier to become the nation''s largest airline.
American could complete negotiations for at least part of the order as early as Thanksgiving, or Nov. 28, sources familiar with the talks said.
A spokesman for AMR Corp., American''s Fort Worth-based parent company, declined to comment. A Boeing spokeswoman also declined to comment, saying the company''s policy is to let customers announce purchases.
American took delivery of its last new plane, a Boeing 757, this summer. Last week, AMR Chairman Robert Crandall said the company wanted to buy more mid-range 757s as well as long-range aircraft "fairly soon." American has about 86 757s in its fleet.
The purchase could include orders and options for 60 wide-body 777s, a twin-engine jet with the range to fly from American''s Dallas hub to Tokyo.
Those airplanes alone would cost about $8 billion before any discounts. Adding about 40 smaller jets American also wants to buy could bring the total purchase to more than $10 billion, the people familiar with the talks said.
Such an order would be "a coup for Boeing," said Nick Heymann, an analyst at NatWest Securities Corp. in New York. The carrier has more than 640 planes, most of which were made by McDonnell Douglas Corp.
The impact of plane purchases at American''s Tulsa Maintenance and Engineering Center depends on the type of planes purchased and the role the local facility would take in their upkeep.
Currently the center handles Fokker 100s, Airbus 300s, McDonnell Douglas DC-10s, MD-80s and MD-11s, and Boeing''s 727.
The future of American''s 80-plane 727 fleet remains unclear. The planes need hush kits placed on engines, at $3 million per engine, or $12 million replacement engines to meet government noise standards that take effect in 2000. They also require a flight crew of three, compared with a two-person crew in more modern craft.

Crandall said last week the company might replace all 16 MD-11s and replace its older 727s with newer narrow-body jets.
Record Number: TUL590418


jake,

Where did all the money and profits from the previous concessions go?

What makes you think things are different now?

 

[RV4]

 

[RV4]

jake,

Were we facing Bankruptcy in 1989 also?


June 5, 1989

TWU ratifies pact
By DON STEWART
Section: BUSINESS
Edition: FINAL HOME
Page: 6C
Estimated Printed Pages: 3
Article Text:
In a vote that surprised and disappointed its leadership, members of American Airlines' Transport Workers Union have ratified a four-year contract worth $610 million in wages and benefits.
Throughout American's system, affirmative votes were cast by 75.8 percent of the 22,000-member TWU membership, union leaders said.
In Tulsa, where 6,300 union members are employed at American's Maintenance and Engineering Center at Tulsa International Airport, 66 percent of those voting cast ballots favoring ratification, said Ed Wilson, president of Local 514 of
the TWU.
American officials said they were pleased with the results of the vote, which was conducted nearly a month ago by the various union locals.
"We are delighted at the outcome of the TWU vote," said Charles Pasciuto, American's vice president, employee relations.
"This contract includes many innovative provisions that will benefit both the company and its employees. This clears the way for us to continue building the airline by giving our customers the finest possible service on the industry's youngest and best maintained fleet.
"It is a real win-win deal."
Wilson, who last month urged union members to reject the proposed contract in favor of a more generous proposal that would pay workers more than $900 million in wages and benefits, said he was surprised at the outcome.
"We made concessions while they (American) are making enormous profits," Wilson said. "I think it (the contract) is a big mistake on the part of both parties.
"We are going to give them $1.5 billion in wage concessions over the next four years. They are going to make so much money they'll make General Motors look like pikers."
The new contract includes union concessions on work rules, wages, benefits and starting wage rates, Wilson said.
However, the contract did not include American's initial proposal whereby employees would begin contributing toward their own health insurance, a key obstacle in early negotiations between the two sides.
That stumbling block was overcome with the company's proposal of "flex benefits," under which the company will allocate to each employee a certain amount of money to be used toward benefits and the worker will be able to select the desired coverage.
The contract also accelerates the advancement of workers along American's 14-step pay scale. Currently, it takes
workers 12 years to reach the top of the wage scale; workers sought to advance to the top in five years.
Under a compromise agreement, the two sides agreed that some workers could advance to the top of the scale in 10
years. The new scale will take effect in three years, Wilson said.
Much of the wage increases will go to workers at the top of American's wage scale, TWU officials said.
Today, the industry average pay for senior TWU workers is about $20.50 per hour. American's senior ground workers
will be paid $21.50 per hour under the new contract, Wilson said.
American, which is in the midst of an expansion program that calls for the airline to buy up to $2 billion worth
of new aircraft per year through the mid-1990s, sought to avoid a strike or wage concessions that would have come
at the expense of long-term growth, said American spokesman Al Becker.
"This contract allows us to continue our growth plan and through that we can continue to provide job opportunities and increasing job security.," Becker said.
Wilson said American negotiators told him that the new contract includes wages and benefits for 7,000 workers the company intends to hire during the next four years.
Instead of the new contract offering American TWU workers wages and benefits of more than $600 million, a more accurate figure would be about $390 million, not counting the money for new employees, Wilson said.
"We weren't negotiating for those (new) people. We were negotiating for workers who are already with the company," Wilson said.
As far as the company's assertion that the new contract assures workers job security, Wilson said, "The job security they gave us was for people who would not have been laid
off anyway in a growing industry."
Record Number: TUL36631

 

[Buck]

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On 7/11/2003 3:42:15 PM jake wrote:

Buck,
There is no secrecy! The TWU website is designed for dues paying members in good standing, which you and Dave are not. All the information is posted for our member’s benefit and use. I had no problem accessing all the information for any of the facts that I have presented on this board. You (and your fellow stooges), on the other hand make allegations without presenting documentation to prove anything. I have made the challenge to them, and now to you Buck. Get something to prove me wrong. Get a judge or lawyer to tell us that we’d have been better off forcing this company into bankruptcy. Let’s compare how many lost jobs there are at Northwest, what are the effects at United due to agreeing to a contract under the 1113 provisions? Tell us which airlines have gone into bankruptcy and didn’t get exactly what they asked for from the court


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If there is no secrecy, then why are Agency Fee non members not allowed access to the web site?
Dues are paid for Representation and Collective Bargaining. Are you afraid that someone might found out that you are misappropriating union dues for your leftist politics? By the I have never been charged and placed in bad standing. In fact I actually challenge members, including stewards and officers to charge me. Yet they have failed to do so. I can have access to the same information that any member can, all I have to do is ask. Our differences begin in the way we see our profession and the type of unionism. You take a socialist point of view whereby everyone should be employed not matter the cost to the rest of the members. I on the other hand seek to better my self and my wages and benefits and acknowledge that in this industry layoffs come and go with the economy. You seek for full employment I seek a beter standard of living through required employment. You condone the concessionary contracts produced by the TWU since 1983 and the B-scale to keep more dues payers on the books. Your fellow members took 17.5% and around 38% paycuts and you believe that is okay as long as everyone has a job. That is the difference.

I do not believe I ever stated to you that we would have done better in Bankruptcy. However those that have gone into bankruptcy have survived with better wages. You seem to believe that the threat of Bankruptcy is over?

 

[AAmech]

Jake don''t waste a lot of time with these ideologs. Now they''re going back to issues of 1983! I think AMFA supporters should explain the concessions made at Alaska and NWA! The Binding Aribitration concession? The closure of maint bases concession? The massive outsourcing concession? Heck if we''re traveling in the time capsule how about when AMFA at Airwest gave a concession to allow company nurses to go to the houses of people who called in sick to verify if they were "Really" sick?

 

[Buck]

The reason I go back to 1983, is because that is when the TWU offered up uts first massive concessionary contract and allowed the B-scale into the industry. I take it that you are topped out?
This issue does not effect you personally so you do not care?

I am not here to explain AMFA at another airline. They must deal with their situation. I want to know what the TWU has done for the mechanic and related? If you have issues with NWA ask them in their forum, but Iask them about their wages also.

It is a good thing that the threat of bankruptcy is over at AA and that the TWU saved all of the jobs at the expense of everyone else. As for your time capsule game, lets go into the future and see when and if we are ever going to recover the losses conceded by the TWU.

 

[Hopeful]

AAMech:

I take it that since that since 1983, the TWU has given more and more mechanics'' work to other TWU represented employees, i.e Fleet Service and SRPs and OSM''s, that you believe it''s better than contracting out work?

Do you realize that at UAL, the IAM is now allowing the ramp people to do more of the mechanics'' work just in case AMFA gets voted in?

 

[RV4]

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On 7/12/2003 827 AM AAmech wrote:


Jake don't waste a lot of time with these ideologs. Now they're going back to issues of 1983! I think AMFA supporters should explain the concessions made at Alaska and NWA! The Binding Aribitration concession? The closure of maint bases concession? The massive outsourcing concession? Heck if we're traveling in the time capsule how about when AMFA at Airwest gave a concession to allow company nurses to go to the houses of people who called in sick to verify if they were "Really" sick?

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Yeah that's right Jake. Pay no attention to the track record of your current bargaining agent. Pay no attention to who has led the industry in concessions since de-regulation.

LARGEST CARRIER - WORST PAY AND BENEFITS - MEANS NOTHING!

DO NOT LOOK AT THE UNION CONCESSIONS OF THE TWU!

LOOK AT THE OTHERS!



"PAY NO ATTENTION TO THAT MAN BEHIND THE CURTAIN"
Wizard of Oz

 

[RV4]

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On 7/11/2003 3:46:37 PM jake wrote:

Hopeful and Buck,
No one, I said NO ONE, likes the current state of our industry. I never made the claim that American would not or could not seek further remedies. However, we have a long way to go before we get to the point where we have given up as much work and as many people as the others carriers have that your “eliteâ€￾ AMFA represents. When thousands of people start hitting the streets directly because of work that has been outsourced, will you let me know?
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jake,

Do you show up at work everyday to recieve pay and benefits in exchange for your labor?

Or do you show up everyday demanding a paycut in exchange for more employees and jobs?

Just wondering! Because I notice you always make reference to other carriers outsource and employment, but never do you mention their pay and benefit package.

Does this information ever cross your mind during the 40 hour workweek?

Northwest/AMFA AMT
Base Rate $29.70
License Premium $4.30
Shift Diferential $0.51
Longevity $0.12
TOTAL $34.63

Southwest/AMFA AMT
Base Rate $31.00
License Premium $4.00
Shift Diferential $0.56
Longevity $.1.30
TOTAL $36.86

AA/TWU AMT
Base Rate $25.25
License Premium $5.00
Shift Diferential $0.01
Longevity $0.00
TOTAL $30.26



Annual Pay Totals - No Overtime
Northwest Mechanic - AMFA = $34.63 X 2080 Hours = $72,030.40
Southwest Mechanic - AMFA = $36.86 X 2080 Hours = $76,668.80
American Airlines Mechanic - TWU = $30.26 X 2080 Hours = $62,940.80
jake, do you really enjoy making an average of $1000.00 per month less while you attempt to employee everyone in the city of Tulsa and the surrounding area. How many jobs have you saved jake? And what is the COST per HEAD?

 

[Bob Owens]

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On 7/11/2003 5:08:28 PM FWAAA wrote:


Each work group's legal and financial advisors counseled the employees that they would likely
UAL no longer performs any heavy overhaul - having closed OAK and IND, laying off thousands of mechanics. But the retort is that the remaining mechanics didn't give up five vacation days or some sick time.

What about SFO?

Better to protect the profession, since things will eventually get back to normal, they say. Wage concessions now will ruin all of labor's historical gains forever, they say.

We gave up a lot more than wage concessions. Sick time,Holiday pay, Vacation, Shift differentials,system protection, double time, overtime for hours after shift for training and more. Yes, basically setting us back over 50 years. We have a worker who has a 1942 seniority date. He says that some of the things we lost were in place when he got here over 60 years ago.

The employees of AMR could have bought control of the company for about $100 million in March of this year. Had they done that, they would be up about 800% right now and they could decide their own fate.

For an average of $1,000 per employee, these people could have bought control of their employer and elected their own directors and hired their own management.

Only problem with that is were all those shares for sale? If there was a buy like that wouldnt it run the price up? What about all the people who bought at $20 or $30 a share and are holding on? Your fairy tale scheme sounds simple enough but its not real life. Just because the price was whatever it was it does not mean that all the holders of the stock are willing to sell it at that price.


Hey whiners: On Monday you all could buy the same stake in the company for an average of about $9,000 each.

If I ran a union of highly paid employees like the TWU, I would have already organized that effort. The pilots and FAs listened to presentations about buying the company - did the TWU?

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