mechanics lose in court

[jake]

Dave,
Since we’ve established, by your own admission that your argument about being better off in bankruptcy is full of crap and cannot be substantiated by any documentation much less a ruling by a judge (the judges, in fact say just the opposite) we must believe that the lies regarding the issue, that you continue to spew across the Tulsa base (and the system) are simply your own line of BS in an attempt to hide the facts from everyone that you talk to. It is interesting, however to see you admit that you are wrong in a public forum like this. I would ask that you would be so honest as to admit that you have no proof of what you say on this topic, to the poor souls who have trusted you enough to sign cards.

Naturally whenever you are wrong you change the subject. It seems kind of ironic to me that you’d bring up 1989. That was the year that mechanics at Braniff got no representation in the bankruptcy proceedings from their highly capable representatives from AMFA. AMFA didn’t even show up to the hearings and you complain about concessions? They left those guys high and dry! Do you see that as a concession through your AMFA colored glasses? Incidentally, 1989 is the year that would have to have been hired at Northwest, as a mechanic in order to hold a job, currently at the Minneapolis overhaul base. I do not have 1989 seniority, that means if we would have taken our chances in bankruptcy, I wouldn’t have had a job. Me and the other 3000 people in Tulsa hired after 1989 certainly wouldn’t have been better off. You however would have continued to build up the best pension paid to any welder in the industry.

 

[jake]

FWAAA,
I''d like to respond to the last question on you post regarding employee buy-out of the company. The answer is YES, the TWU did listen to the very same sales pitch offered to the pilots and flight attendants, although it wasn''t AA that made it(it was an outside agency). All three union''s felt the same way about the offer and rejected it.

 

[RV4]

----------------
On 7/13/2003 1017 PM jake wrote:

FWAAA,
I'd like to respond to the last question on you post regarding employee buy-out of the company. The answer is YES, the TWU did listen to the very same sales pitch offered to the pilots and flight attendants, although it wasn't AA that made it(it was an outside agency). All three union's felt the same way about the offer and rejected it.

----------------​

Really? Who is the TWU? Because I sure dont know anyone who listened to any sales pitch or ever received any material regarding a buyout.

Who is the TWU that you claim listened to this outside agency's information?

There is NO question in my mind that ALL union members will be better off in a union that doesn't refer to the union as a seperate entity from the member.

 

[Bob Owens]

----------------
On 7/13/2003 1017 PM jake wrote:

FWAAA,
I''d like to respond to the last question on you post regarding employee buy-out of the company. The answer is YES, the TWU did listen to the very same sales pitch offered to the pilots and flight attendants, although it wasn''t AA that made it(it was an outside agency). All three union''s felt the same way about the offer and rejected it.

----------------
​

And once again "they" decided what is good for everyone else.

 

[twuer]

RV4,
WAH WAH WAH!!!

Don't post a response to me because I have heard enough from you. No offense, but I can't take the defensive, whiny, all about me attitude. Thanks for your time. . .

 

[Buck]

----------------
On 7/14/2003 9:40:03 AM twuer wrote:

RV4,
WAH WAH WAH!!! Stop with the whining already! I have been reading these posts for the last couple of days and all I get from you (and BOB and a few other AMFA supporters) is a bunch of whiny complaints. You are good at preaching but I''m afraid it''s to the choir. In my opinion it is all about you and what the union can do for you, just you. I guess you aren''t concerned with the guy that you work with everyday that also has a mortgage and 3 kids to support or the single mom who is trying to support her family because the father of her kids is just like you, looking out only for himself. There was a vote, the FAs, pilots and mechanics(and others) all voted to save the company from bankruptcy because they knew it was the best way to go when you got down to it. I might not have all the statistics that you claim to have (I''m a bit weary fo the ones you post) but the bottom line is that we did what was best for the company (who employ us!). Sure there are a lot (A LOT) of politics that go on. No one is denying that. But unfortunately that is the way the country is run. If you are so upset with that process write your congressman! We live in a world that is run by corporations. And even our unions are not sqeaky clean. Everyone knows that. WAKE UP!!! I am not changing my union (TWU) for one that is more corrupt, political and un-American. How long has "Dell" been in office?? How many jobs overseas?? So, you just go on complaining about the TWU. But do us (us being the readers!) a favor, stop crying about what you don''t have and be greatful that you even have a job. There is more to the union than just you and your very few supporters of AMFA. We all have our gripes but you seem to be taking things a bit too personally!

Don''t post a response to me because I have heard enough from you. No offense, but I can''t take the defensive, whiny, all about me attitude. Thanks for your time. . .

----------------​

Ok I will reply.

You have no idea what you are talking about. You have no clue as to the inner workings of the TWU. The truth is, I do not want the likes of you in any union that represents my profession.

 

[twuer]

----------------
On 7/14/2003 11:31:25 AM Buck wrote:

----------------
On 7/14/2003 9:40:03 AM twuer wrote:

RV4,
WAH WAH WAH!!! Stop with the whining already!  I have been reading these posts for the last couple of days and all I get from you (and BOB and a few other AMFA supporters) is a bunch of whiny complaints.  You are good at preaching but I''m afraid it''s to the choir.  In my opinion it is all about you and what the union can do for you, just you.  I guess you aren''t concerned with the guy that you work with everyday that also has a mortgage and 3 kids to support or the single mom who is trying to support her family because the father of her kids is just like you, looking out only for himself.  There was a vote, the FAs, pilots and mechanics(and others) all voted to save the company from bankruptcy because they knew it was the best way to go when you got down to it.  I might not have all the statistics that you claim to have (I''m a bit weary fo the ones you post) but the bottom line is that we did what was best for the company (who employ us!).  Sure there are a lot (A LOT) of politics that go on.  No one is denying that.  But unfortunately that is the way the country is run.  If you are so upset with that process write your congressman!  We live in a world that is run by corporations.  And even our unions are not sqeaky clean.  Everyone knows that.  WAKE UP!!!  I am not changing my union (TWU) for one that is more corrupt, political and un-American.  How long has "Dell" been in office??  How many jobs overseas??  So, you just go on complaining about the TWU.  But do us (us being the readers!) a favor, stop crying about what you don''t have and be greatful that you even have a job.  There is more to the union than just you and your very few supporters of AMFA.  We all have our gripes but you seem to be taking things a bit too personally! 

Don''t post a response to me because I have heard enough from you.  No offense, but I can''t take the defensive, whiny, all about me attitude.  Thanks for your time. . .               

----------------​

Ok I will reply.

You have no idea what you are talking about. You have no clue as to the inner workings of the TWU. The truth is, I do not want the likes of you in any union that represents my profession.

----------------​

Are you scared Buck?? Did you have to ask RV4 if you could answer for him? Maybe I don''t know all of the inner workings of the TWU but I doubt you do either. But I can tell you this. . .I''m a lot closer than you think to the "inner workings" as you call them. Get out if you don''t like it brother. You''re just mad because things aren''t going the way you want them to. Everything I said is true. Maybe I didn''t say them with all the statistics you cronies seem to come up with but I said it in laymen terms. The union should be for everyone, not just a select few.
Why can''t we all just get along? Should we kiss and make up now???

 

[Buck]

----------------
On 7/14/2003 354 PM twuer wrote:

----------------
On 7/14/2003 11:31:25 AM Buck wrote:

----------------
On 7/14/2003 9:40:03 AM twuer wrote:

RV4,
WAH WAH WAH!!! Stop with the whining already!  I have been reading these posts for the last couple of days and all I get from you (and BOB and a few other AMFA supporters) is a bunch of whiny complaints.  You are good at preaching but I''m afraid it''s to the choir.  In my opinion it is all about you and what the union can do for you, just you.  I guess you aren''t concerned with the guy that you work with everyday that also has a mortgage and 3 kids to support or the single mom who is trying to support her family because the father of her kids is just like you, looking out only for himself.  There was a vote, the FAs, pilots and mechanics(and others) all voted to save the company from bankruptcy because they knew it was the best way to go when you got down to it.  I might not have all the statistics that you claim to have (I''m a bit weary fo the ones you post) but the bottom line is that we did what was best for the company (who employ us!).  Sure there are a lot (A LOT) of politics that go on.  No one is denying that.  But unfortunately that is the way the country is run.  If you are so upset with that process write your congressman!  We live in a world that is run by corporations.  And even our unions are not sqeaky clean.  Everyone knows that.  WAKE UP!!!  I am not changing my union (TWU) for one that is more corrupt, political and un-American.  How long has "Dell" been in office??  How many jobs overseas??  So, you just go on complaining about the TWU.  But do us (us being the readers!) a favor, stop crying about what you don''t have and be greatful that you even have a job.  There is more to the union than just you and your very few supporters of AMFA.  We all have our gripes but you seem to be taking things a bit too personally! 

Don''t post a response to me because I have heard enough from you.  No offense, but I can''t take the defensive, whiny, all about me attitude.  Thanks for your time. . .               

----------------​

Ok I will reply.

You have no idea what you are talking about. You have no clue as to the inner workings of the TWU. The truth is, I do not want the likes of you in any union that represents my profession.

----------------​

Are you scared Buck?? Did you have to ask RV4 if you could answer for him? Maybe I don''t know all of the inner workings of the TWU but I doubt you do either. But I can tell you this. . .I''m a lot closer than you think to the "inner workings" as you call them. Get out if you don''t like it brother. You''re just mad because things aren''t going the way you want them to. Everything I said is true. Maybe I didn''t say them with all the statistics you cronies seem to come up with but I said it in laymen terms. The union should be for everyone, not just a select few.
Why can''t we all just get along? Should we kiss and make up now???

----------------​

I am not your brother and I am out. I am not a member of the TWU, I am a non-member of the TWU.
Sounds like you almost identified yourself as an officer or steward, careful. As for being mad, you are correct. I am mad that the TWU gave away my wages to protect their dues payments.

 

[jake]

Buck,
You ask, “ where is the AFL-CIO?â€￾ Let me say, you AMFA boys have done a good job keeping them busy. They (we) have been testifying before congress in an attempt to try to save our work from going overseas (the congressional records are available). Where are your boys when the testimonies are given? I can say where they are not, and that is in the “fightâ€￾ to save our workâ€￾. In fact AMFA represented airlines lead the industry in the “farm outâ€￾ category. Since the AMFA took over representation at Northwest in 1998, they have, via contract language (layoffs), have cost about 4500 mechanics their jobs. By the way Buck, how many of those jobs do you think will be available for a Northwest recall? So lets hold the AMFA philosophy under a microscope. You say, layoffs instead of pay in order that the laid off guys will come back to a good job. How are the mechanics going to come back if AMFA continues to produce contract language that allows jobs to leave the country?

 

[Buck]

----------------
On 7/15/2003 909 AM jake wrote:

Buck,
You ask, “ where is the AFL-CIO?â€￾ Let me say, you AMFA boys have done a good job keeping them busy. They (we) have been testifying before congress in an attempt to try to save our work from going overseas (the congressional records are available). Where are your boys when the testimonies are given? I can say where they are not, and that is in the “fightâ€￾ to save our workâ€￾. In fact AMFA represented airlines lead the industry in the “farm outâ€￾ category. Since the AMFA took over representation at Northwest in 1998, they have, via contract language (layoffs), have cost about 4500 mechanics their jobs. By the way Buck, how many of those jobs do you think will be available for a Northwest recall? So lets hold the AMFA philosophy under a microscope. You say, layoffs instead of pay in order that the laid off guys will come back to a good job. How are the mechanics going to come back if AMFA continues to produce contract language that allows jobs to leave the country?


----------------​

First of all, the question concerning the AFL-CIO was in general. I asked this question based on the lack of representation they have provided. If they were as strong as they claim, the airline industry would not be walking all over them. They would unite labor across the country and make a stand. After all Mr. Sweeny does seem to have the power, he just never uses it. AMFA members were the first ot bring this issue before their congressmen in Minnesota. I do not know who participated. How many TWU Local 514 members participated at these hearings? How many aircraft mechanics? Not just bus drivers and dispatchers. The point that something is coming from the actions is what is important. We as mechanic and related should all work together to bring those issues concerning our profession to the forefront. You say AMFA leads the farmout. I say that AA is already farming out, it is called farming out in house. It is the OSM classification and it was the B-scale all the way through to the SRP classification. Why farm out when you have negotiated your labor costs to the lowest average in the industry right in your own house. If AA had not been able to use the OSM etc. , then they to would have followed their competitors moves.

I cannot tell you how many will be recalled. But what I can tell is that you voted to lower my wages and benefits. AMFA''s contract language is for 38% of the labor dollars. When the company exceeds this, grievences are files. When the TWU quesions more work being farmed out they tell the members, they can do that brother. The only thing that the TWU has been able to do is to keep the airframe in house. Componets form both the airframe and engines are already out the door. If not out the door than being done by substandard compensated AMTs in house. I wonder if you ask the lowest paid mechanic at Northwest or Southwest what their salary is what they would say? What do you think the mechanic that was bumped to OSM and took a 38% paycut would say.

As for producing contract language, you have you really read yours? Especially the SCOPE?

 

[jake]

Buck,
Try to hang on here because this roller coaster takes a few tight turns and I don’t want you to fall out! You speak of a lack of representation from the AFL-CIO but fail to be able to show how AMFA has stepped up to the plate to save the jobs that are flying out Northwest’s (and others) doors. That’s because they haven’t done anything! I have the congressional records that show that was there! (You could have them too, if you were interested in the truth) You claim that AMFA was the “FIRST†to bring this issue to Senator Dayton from Minnesota. We didn’t take our argument to one senator, we took it to congress! You must have had a great impact on him with your letters because Dayton’s office forced AMFA to remove their lies about working with him from their website. It’s truly sad that you would actually claim that you had any effect in the foreign maintenance fight with just a letter writing campaign or a phone call. If that is your “power mechanismâ€, no wonder Washington laughs at you.

Let me get this right, you say it’s better to send jobs overseas than to keep the work in house? You claim that the OSM’s shouldn’t have a job? Wow, I can’t believe you are so selfish that you don’t care about those guys! I think that they’d say they need a job! Your willing to accept 5000 layoffs in order to keep from taking a pay cut? You are truly a great Union brother! If I were an OSM, I’d really be in a hurry to sign up so you could farm out my work!!

 

[Buck]

----------------
On 7/15/2003 12:01:25 PM jake wrote:

Buck,
Try to hang on here because this roller coaster takes a few tight turns and I don’t want you to fall out! You speak of a lack of representation from the AFL-CIO but fail to be able to show how AMFA has stepped up to the plate to save the jobs that are flying out Northwest’s (and others) doors. That’s because they haven’t done anything! I have the congressional records that show that was there! (You could have them too, if you were interested in the truth) You claim that AMFA was the “FIRST†to bring this issue to Senator Dayton from Minnesota. We didn’t take our argument to one senator, we took it to congress! You must have had a great impact on him with your letters because Dayton’s office forced AMFA to remove their lies about working with him from their website. It’s truly sad that you would actually claim that you had any effect in the foreign maintenance fight with just a letter writing campaign or a phone call. If that is your “power mechanismâ€, no wonder Washington laughs at you.

Let me get this right, you say it’s better to send jobs overseas than to keep the work in house? You claim that the OSM’s shouldn’t have a job? Wow, I can’t believe you are so selfish that you don’t care about those guys! I think that they’d say they need a job! Your willing to accept 5000 layoffs in order to keep from taking a pay cut? You are truly a great Union brother! If I were an OSM, I’d really be in a hurry to sign up so you could farm out my work!!


----------------​

I am not concerned with what is happening at Northwest. I am concerned what has happened the TWU at AA. You never answer the question with anything but what about AMFA at Northwest. I never said that the TWU Internationaland the AFL-CIO were not there. I said that Sentor Dayton brought it to congress first at the behest of AMFA. The important thing is that there is opposition to overseas work. And who is the AFL-CIO lobbying for? The mechanics, that would be a shock. Tell me that the rest of the TWU and the AFL-CIO has no interest in this legislation. I have never had any effect on the foreign maintenance issue through anyone except my Senators and Congressmen. I placed calls and wrote letters. It just surprises me that after all these years that the TWU begins to show interest in the mechanics and their issues. Again are the other work groups really concerned about foreign maintenance for the reason of Safety and Security or is it just about hanging on the mechanics coat tails? I never said anything about the TWU''s ability to send work overseas. They farm out in house. What OSMs are left, they underpaid AMTs have bumped the majority of them to the street or a cleaning position. The OSMs today are those that took a better than 38% paycut to save the airline. What did you take, a miniscule 17.5%? I might appear selfish, but I only learned it at one place and from one group, the TWU "I got mine brother"

 

[j7915]

----------------
On 7/15/2003 10:18:33 AM Buck wrote:

----------------

On 7/15/2003 909 AM jake wrote:


Buck,

You ask, “ where is the AFL-CIO?” Let me say, you AMFA boys have done a good job keeping them busy. They (we) have been testifying before congress in an attempt to try to save our work from going overseas (the congressional records are available). Where are your boys when the testimonies are given? I can say where they are not, and that is in the “fight” to save our work”. In fact AMFA represented airlines lead the industry in the “farm out” category. Since the AMFA took over representation at Northwest in 1998, they have, via contract language (layoffs), have cost about 4500 mechanics their jobs. By the way Buck, how many of those jobs do you think will be available for a Northwest recall? So lets hold the AMFA philosophy under a microscope. You say, layoffs instead of pay in order that the laid off guys will come back to a good job. How are the mechanics going to come back if AMFA continues to produce contract language that allows jobs to leave the country?



----------------​

First of all, the question concerning the AFL-CIO was in general. I asked this question based on the lack of representation they have provided. If they were as strong as they claim, the airline industry would not be walking all over them. They would unite labor across the country and make a stand. After all Mr. Sweeny does seem to have the power, he just never uses it. AMFA members were the first ot bring this issue before their congressmen in Minnesota. I do not know who participated. How many TWU Local 514 members participated at these hearings? How many aircraft mechanics? Not just bus drivers and dispatchers. The point that something is coming from the actions is what is important. We as mechanic and related should all work together to bring those issues concerning our profession to the forefront. You say AMFA leads the farmout. I say that AA is already farming out, it is called farming out in house. It is the OSM classification and it was the B-scale all the way through to the SRP classification. Why farm out when you have negotiated your labor costs to the lowest average in the industry right in your own house. If AA had not been able to use the OSM etc. , then they to would have followed their competitors moves. 


I cannot tell you how many will be recalled. But what I can tell is that you voted to lower my wages and benefits. AMFA''s contract language is for 38% of the labor dollars. When the company exceeds this, grievences are files. When the TWU quesions more work being farmed out they tell the members, they can do that brother. The only thing that the TWU has been able to do is to keep the airframe in house. Componets form both the airframe and engines are already out the door. If not out the door than being done by substandard compensated AMTs in house. I wonder if you ask the lowest paid mechanic at Northwest or Southwest what their salary is what they would say? What do you think the mechanic that was bumped to OSM and took a 38% paycut would say.


As for producing contract language, you have you really read yours? Especially the SCOPE? 

----------------​

Buck why don''t you stop being so cute and clever? You repeat the same lies over and over and fail to a mention the obvious, far too many TWU members, in Tulsa at least, are voting for the conservative, republican, etc. etc. party. They are voting for issues that have nothing to do with their paycheck, and then you come up and accuse the AFL-CIO of not having any clout.

As an analogy: you sound like land owners who live along the coast, complaining when they are told not to build there and then complain because the government did not protect them from hurricanes.

As to the 38% outsourcing limit, AMFA is the first union to put actual numbers in their contract. I doubt if a judge will find for the union, the contract does not preclude outsourcing, it just requires penalties. But I suppose it is better to contract out than to have the same work done in house, at the same rate with better benefits than MROs pay.

 

[jake]

Buck,
I think we lost you!! Didn’t you buckle up? Ok very clearly now…. two things. One, you don’t want to talk about Northwest because you get your butt kicked! Second, Show us some proof that senator Dayton heeded your call and appealed “first†to congress. (Surely there is a congressional record) It surely is important that there is someone making the argument to save our work. It’s also important to point out who is making the argument because you guys lie about it!!

You are such a joke; you have NEVER had any effect on any senator or congressman. You and Dave (Mo and Larry) make so many claims and have absolutely no documentation. I can believe it would surprise you if the AFL-CIO was intervening on mechanics behalf because you think that the current administration has your best interests at heart. Wake up! They are currently trying to take away you overtime pay! As far as the 38% pay cut….don’t you think the OSM’s suffered enough? If AMFA were here, they’d likely use the same techniques that they have used at Northwest and Alaska. From 1998 to present Northwest has laid off about 5000 mechanics due to the outsourcing language, which they agreed to. And as for you getting yours? You (my brother) are still building the best retirement in the industry!

Once again, AMFA’s philosophy is….layoff all the OSM’s so I don’t have to take a pay cut!

 

[Hopeful]

Why don''t you ask someone at UAL how many jobs it gave away. 5000-6000 mechanics eliminated to date.