Luv Fades

[SKY HIGH]

One of the newest fleets in the skies, and high frequency of flights...service pretty much exceeds that of the "legacies".

yeah, I keep hearing about that WN "service".
Do YOU offer your frequent flyers, anyone, an airline CLUB? NO.
Interline bags to various other domestic/int'l carriers. NO.
Offer inflight entertainment/Music or Movies? NO and NO
Offer Upgrades? NO
Offer First Class, Business Class? NO and NO
Preferred check-in counter? NO
Glassware and China? NO
Airline Alliance with over 800 destinations? NO
Buy onboard? NO
Advanced Seating? NO
Lie Flat Seats? NO
Amenity Kits? NO
Inflight Phones? NO

WN Service? Hmmm, a glass of soda and some crackers. LOL.

Cornboy, the "legacies" consistently OUTRANK you in on-time departures/arrivals. Baggage statistics and cancellations. Sheesh, you cant even get your flights OUT ON TIME with your load factors being in the high 70 percentage factor.
There you go, the facts: www.bts.gov
Air Travel Consumer Report

 

[KCFlyer]

yeah, I keep hearing about that WN "service".
Do YOU offer your frequent flyers, anyone, an airline CLUB? NO.Yep...give away those trips and upgrades. Good profit in them I hear. This coming from bankrupt carriers who view a butt in a seat as a profit.

Interline bags to various other domestic/int'l carriers. NO. If I'm flying from Kansas City to LA, is an interline bag service top on my list of priorities? I mean, are there really people who, when flying between two domestic points say "it sure is great that somebody can have their bags checked to Shanghai on another airline"?

Offer inflight entertainment/Music or Movies? NO and NO Believe it or not, there are people who entertain themselves with their own music, books, or work - especially on domestic flights.

Offer Upgrades? NO With 12 seats on the average domestic airliner, how many elites are you pissing off when that 13th person wants an upgrade. Back with the other 130 plebeians with you!

Offer First Class, Business Class? NO and NO Do the vast majority of your travellers experience this? Nope...usually about 12 lucky souls are in a typical domestic FC cabin. The other 130 are sitting in a coach seat. Any idea how many people actually PAID to sit in one of those seats?

Preferred check-in counter? NO You may have hit on why the Southwests, Jetblues and Airtrans have been more successful...none of this "preferred" treatment. BTW...how many of those preferred customers paid a profitable fare?

Glassware and China? NO I would venture to say that the 130+ folks in the back cabin rarely get to see that either.

Airline Alliance with over 800 destinations? NO I'm still trying to figure out the benefit of this one, other than someone can use their miles on some other airline, that may never have seen a dime of that customers money.

Buy onboard? NO No, but free snack packs on longer flights

Advanced Seating? NO Can you tell me again how a center seat assigned in advance is better than a center seat picked on your own?

Lie Flat Seats? NO How many domestic coach seats are like that on your airline?

Amenity Kits? NO And how many coach class passengers get these?

Inflight Phones? NO Even when I fly airlines with inflight phones, I think I've might have seen one guy using one.

WN Service? Hmmm, a glass of soda and some crackers. LOL. Which is more that what some of the airlines you describe above offer "due to our short flying time".

Cornboy, the "legacies" consistently OUTRANK you in on-time departures/arrivals. Baggage statistics and cancellations. Sheesh, you cant even get your flights OUT ON TIME with your load factors being in the high 70 percentage factor. I imagine "Cornboy" is used in only the most affectionate manner. Yep...system wide load factors in the 70's don't mean that every flight is only 70% full. Hey...didn't they make a profit with that load factor? You need what...85% average to profit?

 

[SKY HIGH]

yeah, I keep hearing about that WN "service".
Do YOU offer your frequent flyers, anyone, an airline CLUB? NO.Yep...give away those trips and upgrades. Good profit in them I hear. This coming from bankrupt carriers who view a butt in a seat as a profit.

Interline bags to various other domestic/int'l carriers. NO. If I'm flying from Kansas City to LA, is an interline bag service top on my list of priorities? I mean, are there really people who, when flying between two domestic points say "it sure is great that somebody can have their bags checked to Shanghai on another airline"?

Offer inflight entertainment/Music or Movies? NO and NO Believe it or not, there are people who entertain themselves with their own music, books, or work - especially on domestic flights.

Offer Upgrades? NO With 12 seats on the average domestic airliner, how many elites are you pissing off when that 13th person wants an upgrade. Back with the other 130 plebeians with you!

Offer First Class, Business Class? NO and NO Do the vast majority of your travellers experience this? Nope...usually about 12 lucky souls are in a typical domestic FC cabin. The other 130 are sitting in a coach seat. Any idea how many people actually PAID to sit in one of those seats?

Preferred check-in counter? NO You may have hit on why the Southwests, Jetblues and Airtrans have been more successful...none of this "preferred" treatment. BTW...how many of those preferred customers paid a profitable fare?

Glassware and China? NO I would venture to say that the 130+ folks in the back cabin rarely get to see that either.

Airline Alliance with over 800 destinations? NO I'm still trying to figure out the benefit of this one, other than someone can use their miles on some other airline, that may never have seen a dime of that customers money.

Buy onboard? NO No, but free snack packs on longer flights

Advanced Seating? NO Can you tell me again how a center seat assigned in advance is better than a center seat picked on your own?

Lie Flat Seats? NO How many domestic coach seats are like that on your airline?

Amenity Kits? NO And how many coach class passengers get these?

Inflight Phones? NO Even when I fly airlines with inflight phones, I think I've might have seen one guy using one.

WN Service? Hmmm, a glass of soda and some crackers. LOL. Which is more that what some of the airlines you describe above offer "due to our short flying time".

Cornboy, the "legacies" consistently OUTRANK you in on-time departures/arrivals. Baggage statistics and cancellations. Sheesh, you cant even get your flights OUT ON TIME with your load factors being in the high 70 percentage factor. I imagine "Cornboy" is used in only the most affectionate manner. Yep...system wide load factors in the 70's don't mean that every flight is only 70% full. Hey...didn't they make a profit with that load factor? You need what...85% average to profit?

sky high states: NICE "ATTEMPT" to devalue what so many people want and PREFER. Ask the millions of Frequent flyers out there. LOL

 

[TechBoy]

And out of that 190 million, how much of was after they funded your pension? You seem to forget that American could have posted even better numbers, but they put almost $190 million into their pensions.

Boy, I don't even know where to start with this total distortion of the truth. KC, you usually are very accurate, but not here.

First off, UA pays significant amounts in defined contribution pension plans. Those costs are included as a normal business expense in their financial results. While UA does not break them out, there are still substantial. Yet UA still had a fairly significant profit.

Second, AA made a required contribution to their defined benefit plan as they normally would. This is also a normal cost that is included in the financial results and cannot be considered a nonrecurring item. It is not an "optional" expense. They are required by law to meet certain pension funding levels (which are actually quite lax as other companies' employees can attest).

I just don't understand that people have a hard time accepting that AA and WN had mediocre results this quarter while UA had good results (for the first time in a long time). A single quarter is not very meaningful. What matters is whether UA can sustain its improvements and whether AA can get strong enough margins to cover its costs and whether WN can handle the long transition to paying higher fuel prices. My personal guesses:

UA - they will be a profitable operation over time, but not so stellar that they will continue to seek efficiencies through a merger

AA - they will get good margins from a great network, but a return to very high fuel prices will challenge AA more than most

WN - WN will have lower costs than the majors but the loss of the huge hedging benefits will challenge WN to maintain higher fares and provide a few more amenities to attract more business travellers, but I suspect that WN is already planning for it

 

[KCFlyer]

sky high states: NICE "ATTEMPT" to devalue what so many people want and PREFER. Ask the millions of Frequent flyers out there. LOL

They might prefer it skyhigh, but the amenities you describe as differentiating legacies over Southwest are things that are available to less than 1/10 of their customers. Is it good for me to 'prefer' glassware and lie
flat seats - but still be stuck in a coach seat? Life is good if you are part of that 1/10 of your passengers - but what do the others get to differentiate your service from that of Southwest.

 

[N421LV]

sky high states: NICE "ATTEMPT" to devalue what so many people want and PREFER. Ask the millions of Frequent flyers out there. LOL

I hear what you're saying SKY HIGH, but I don't think you know the mind of the typical(?) airline passenger as well as you think. What they "want and PREFER" is one thing, what they are WILLING TO PAY FOR, is another. What you, JBGuppy, and others seem to overlook is that SWA has, from their conception, always been the low-cost provider of air service....end of story. Everything they do goes to further cement this position in the industry, and it has allowed them to become the largest domestic carrier (in total passenger enplanements) in the US. So while you can rip them all you want over no assigned seats, or frequent stops, or lack of china (WTFO?), the fact remains that a large portion of the traveling public feels they are still getting value from the SWA product.

I also don't get JBGuppy's assertion that SWA is leaving their niche. Again...every move they are making is to preserve their cost advantage in the industry. They could add more "services" but I'm sure that one of the bean-counters in Dallas could show you why the cost-benefit of an IFE system, for example, is currently a no-go for them. It's a tough time in the business right now for sure. SWA is competing with re-organized carriers and up-starts that are both operating with artificially low costs, but over time those costs will only go in one direction. Some would argue that SWA's costs will also increase as fuel hedges run out, etc. Perhaps. But as it stands right now, the company already enjoys the lowest non-fuel CASM in the business while paying the highest labor RATES (not to be confused with labor COSTS) in the business. To keep the growth going (a key element of maintaining low costs), SWA has shifted to a hub-raiding strategy, and it seems to be serving them well so far. Over time as has been proven again and again, the traditional hub&spoke all-things-to-all-travelers carrier will never be cost-competitive with the much simpler model of a SWA. Who's strategy will prevail over the next few years? I don't know for sure, but past performance IS a strong indicator.

 

[SKY HIGH]

Sky High, I like you and I'm loyal to US for every one of the reasons you state. But in a market someone has to be Wal-Mart and somebody has to be Nordstroms!

There ya go, KC. One Frequent flyer who SPENDS ALOT OF MONEY for those priveleges. And, Bob, how often do you get an upgrade due to your loyalty? Sit in coach?

 

[N421LV]

There ya go, KC. One Frequent flyer who SPENDS ALOT OF MONEY for those priveleges. And, Bob, how often do you get an upgrade due to your loyalty? Sit in coach?

Did you pick up on any of the other points from Bob's post?

 

[KCFlyer]

There ya go, KC. One Frequent flyer who SPENDS ALOT OF MONEY for those priveleges. And, Bob, how often do you get an upgrade due to your loyalty? Sit in coach?

YOu should read more of Bob's posts Sky...I do believe there are times he's paid less than full coach...a LOT less, because, after all...if you're going to give it away, one would be a fool not to take it. And when you upgrade someone who bought a loss leader seat...is his loyalty really worth it? Not slammin' you Bob...but I've seen some posts from you where you admit flying on a cheap ticket.

You know, I flew US from MCI-SJU last Thanksgiving. I had a coach seat in a 767. No meal. No lie back seat. No glassware. No need to interline since US had a flight from CLT to SJU. No cares about an alliance, again because US flew there. A movie (Charlie and the Chocolate Factory) that quite frankly, I didn't care to watch. But you know something - I got to SJU safe and pretty much on time. And the battery in my Ipod stayed up long enought to keep my music available to entertain me. There were 179 of us back there in coach. And there 24 folks up front, although I don't think they had lie flat seats either. Couldn't tell you about glassware or not...they had the curtains closed. And I paid about $600 round trip for the ticket. I wonder if I paid more than some of those 24 folks up front.

 

[magsau]

You know, I flew US from MCI-SJU last Thanksgiving.

What, you did not fly SWA? Oh that is right they don't go to SJU. The horror.

 

[KCFlyer]

What, you did not fly SWA? Oh that is right they don't go to SJU. The horror.

They sure don't. You know something though...99.9% of the time - neither do I. And here's something for ya...I actually paid money to fly to SJU. I wonder how many folks were exercising their FF miles to either upgrade to the no-lie flat seat equipped first class cabin, or to "buy" the trip to catch their cruise ship.

 

[x15]

You guys are way too wrapped up in details. Unlike some other airlines, SWA doesn't try to be everything to everybody. The important thing is that SWA is about being a PROFITABLE business. Part of their path in doing this is keeping things fairly simple. If you have to have a "club" or first class seat, then pay the extra bucks and don't fly SWA. The numbers show that there are plenty of people will fly on SWA and like it.

One of the great union guys of the past, perhaps Samual Gompers, said, "The greatest harm you can do to employees is to not remain profitable"

 

[ClueByFour]

Just to play devils advocate here for a second. With the surge in RJ's in US's fleet I sometimes ponder if a coach seat on SWA would be better than an RJ seat on any legacy?

I stopped wondering and started buying what would be "all RJ" trips on WN. The barbie jets just don't justify the miles for me. YMMV.

 

[magsau]

They sure don't. You know something though...99.9% of the time - neither do I. And here's something for ya...I actually paid money to fly to SJU. I wonder how many folks were exercising their FF miles to either upgrade to the no-lie flat seat equipped first class cabin, or to "buy" the trip to catch their cruise ship.

Does it matter KC how they got on the plane? Revenue accounting should be up to speed in limiting the number of seats on the min. miles program and if the limit is exceeded then the airlines go to the double miles deduction to give the pax a seat on the plane. This is a good way for the airlines to vacate a persons mileage balance while giving them what they want, a free seat to a desired destination. The loyalty programs on the legacy carriers are a good tool against the likes of SWA.

 

[KCFlyer]

Does it matter KC how they got on the plane?

No more than it mattered that Southwest doesn't fly to SJU. But you saw fit to comment, so I thought I'd add to it. I mean, I rarely book a flight between two US cities and ask myself "Does this airline or a code share partner serve Shanghai"? Does it matter when I only want to go to Nashville? If Southwest doesn't fly where I'm going, I'll fly an airline that does.