Looks like pilot error?

[BoeingBoy]

Come on KC, you can't be that slow to think that UAL doesn't pay it's bills.

Being with a company (US) that's been through BK twice now, maybe I've got a little more experience with this "bill paying" than you.

If you're only talking about post-BK filing bills, you're correct - those bills get paid and often the vendor requires cash up front (though not in most cases).

However, those bills that were unpaid when the company files BK largely remain unpaid. Those vendors (they're called unsecured creditors - they're owed money but control no collateral) end up getting a few cents on the dollar when the company emerges from BK - haven't I seen where UA's unsecured creditors will get something like 6 cents on the dollar?

In the case of US, that amounts to 10's of millions of dollars in unpaid bills for BK2 alone. I can just imagine what the total will be in UA's case.

Jim

 

[2BorNot2B]

Now to your other points:
the V-1 cut? When you fly your first jet over 100 tons, I'll let you comment. FWIW, when it happened at UAL (And nobody died BTW) the company IMMEDIATELY took action to ensure that "bunkies" would have better currency and training (at considerable expense, so I doubt SWA would have done the same)
(quote)

Just cruising this topic and came across this ....! I had not heard about this incident. Do I read correctly .... a Check Airman did a V-1 cut w/pax on board?? Noted the Jumpseater remark .... did the CA try to simulate with power-lever reduction and was stopped by the JS'r ??? When did this happen??

Seasons Greetings ...

2B

 

[insp89]

My bad....allow me to rephrase, they still would have lost less money than an airline operating for 3 years under bankruptcy protection.

Still the same class act, KC...

 

[magsau]

My bad....allow me to rephrase, they still would have lost less money than an airline operating for 3 years under bankruptcy protection.

KC,

I guess you would rather fly and airline that the pilots have no respect for runway lengths, rules- company or FAA? Flying naked, running off of runways and various other acts that are the trademark of SWA. Perhaps they could replace the "you are now free to move about the country to you are now free to walk to the terminal". Change the "Ding" to the Evac siren?

Now tell us again your opinion of UAL

Really? Here in the heartland, I often see SWA jets taxi at a brisk clip, but I had no idea that one of those beasts reached V1 at 30 knots.

30kts? You got a speed gun or a guage to measure that speed KC? You might be a bit on the low side of that. LUV is a hazard and they are getting their day in the light.

 

[swflyer]

Flying naked, running off of runways and various other acts that are the trademark of SWA.

I hereby challenge you to find anything in print or video, created by SWA, that is a "trademark" of the same.

Flame all you want, but each airline has it's file drawer full of "trademark" items, and NOTHING will be gained by flinging this crap at eachother. :down:

You, Magsau, have been around long enough to know this. <_<

 

[Busdrvr]

2BorN2B,
The incident in question was one in which a 747-400 at MTOGW injested a large bird just after V1. I even think it was the 'critical engine' IOW, the worst possible scenario. The "cruise b1tch" F/O (what is typically called a "bunkie") was doing the TO after not having done one in some time. He did not apply sufficient rudder, so to keep the wings level, he used the yoke. This deployed the spoilers on the up wing and the added drag coupled with the drift from the assymetric flight resulted in the aircraft BARELY clearing that rather large hill to the northwest of SFO (IMC conditions). The story was leaked to the press (just how close it was to an accident). Prior to the leak, UAL had begun an intensive review of Bunkie training and currency, and implemented requirements that were in excess of what the FAA required. IOW, after the FIRST close call, they acted to try to ensure that it wouldn's happen again, instead of the "we didn't crash" defense that some other airlines ahve used in the past after incidents.....

BB,
Operating results do not count bills you acrued 5 years ago at ANY airline. That is where NET comes into play because of it's accounting for interest payments. Funny, all those folks who now cite the BK costs instead of the operating results or even net results minus BK charges, will surely be changing their tune when UAL has the most profitable quarter of any airline in the history of the industry during the quarter they exit BK. That's the way accounting works.

 

[WNJETFIXER]

KC,

I guess you would rather fly and airline that the pilots have no respect for runway lengths, rules- company or FAA? Flying naked, running off of runways and various other acts that are the trademark of SWA. Perhaps they could replace the "you are now free to move about the country to you are now free to walk to the terminal". Change the "Ding" to the Evac siren?

Are you kidding me????Flying naked, running off of runways and various other acts that are the trademark of SWA....is that all you have???Please let me know what airline you work for and I bet yours looks alot worse. Get back to me!! :down:

 

[KCFlyer]

My opinion of UAL? Given that bussie has said many times about 3 years ago that SWA pilots were less qualified because they were "dragging down the industry" with their pay rates...and knowing that he no longer flies for UAL because the rate of pay doesn't justify his skills in the cockpit, I can only assume that those who stayed are the "less qualified" pilots. Why on earth would I want to put my family on one of those planes with those less qualified, lower paid pilots on board? Gosh...using that logic, it's only a matter of time before a UAL incident. Doubt me? Read the posts from 3 years ago. What I find really odd though is the perverse pleasure in seeing pilot pay cuts resulting in a "stronger" UAL.

 

[tulswa]

KC,

I guess you would rather fly and airline that the pilots have no respect for runway lengths, rules- company or FAA? Flying naked, running off of runways and various other acts that are the trademark of SWA. Perhaps they could replace the "you are now free to move about the country to you are now free to walk to the terminal". Change the "Ding" to the Evac siren?

Now tell us again your opinion of UAL
30kts? You got a speed gun or a guage to measure that speed KC? You might be a bit on the low side of that. LUV is a hazard and they are getting their day in the light.

Your obvious hatred of SWA prevents you from making any credible, intelligent remark pertaining to SWA. Your are pretty quick to pass judgement over issues that you have little or no first hand knowledge of. I truly fell sorry for you.

 

[Busdrvr]

My opinion of UAL? Given that bussie has said many times about 3 years ago that SWA pilots were less qualified because they were "dragging down the industry" with their pay rates...and knowing that he no longer flies for UAL because the rate of pay doesn't justify his skills in the cockpit, I can only assume that those who stayed are the "less qualified" pilots. Why on earth would I want to put my family on one of those planes with those less qualified, lower paid pilots on board? Gosh...using that logic, it's only a matter of time before a UAL incident. Doubt me? Read the posts from 3 years ago. What I find really odd though is the perverse pleasure in seeing pilot pay cuts resulting in a "stronger" UAL.

Find it my friend. Show me where I've said SWA's pilots were less qualified. It's never happened. I have the utmost respect for the pilots at SWA and see them as the "second best" in the industry. My gripe three years ago was that SWA's corporate culture, that placed speed and saving money above all else, was going to bite them in the arse and someone would get killed. Now three years later....
I find no pleasure in lower pay rates. Unfortunately SWA's will come down also, likely within 2 years. They will match the lowest common denominator, or go lower because of a promise of wonderful stock options. Mark my word. But in any case, please don't mischaracterize what I've said. You sir are a passenger, a customer. You're now longer so much as a shareholder. Your opinions are based on what you see staring out the side window, and even then from a frame of knowledge that doesn't afford you the ability to make valid judgements on what is right and what is wrong, what is safe and what isn't. There are disparate opinions on the effects of SWA's culture from various people who actually DO have the knowledge to form an opinion. The are from all sides of the spectrum. I'm not going to say my opinion is the correct one. It's mine. Rhino thinks his is the correct one. The differance is, both of us have some level of knowledge from which we can form a valid opinion. You'd be wise to read them and cease looking foolish by saying things like how fast you think someone is taxiing based on your view from 12A.

But one more time. I take considerable offense to you mischaracterizing my comments from the past. I will say now, as I've said consistantly, SWA pilots are among the most capable in the world. I know many, and have respect for almost every single one. They were squadron mates of mine.

 

[BoeingBoy]

BB,
Operating results do not count bills you acrued 5 years ago at ANY airline.

I didn't know that UA had been in BK 5 years now....

That is where NET comes into play because of it's accounting for interest payments. Funny, all those folks who now cite the BK costs instead of the operating results or even net results minus BK charges, will surely be changing their tune when UAL has the most profitable quarter of any airline in the history of the industry during the quarter they exit BK. That's the way accounting works.

I was merely commenting on the "UA pays it bills" discussion. Any of the airlines that go thru bankruptcy - US, UA, DL, NW, etc - will stiff their unsecured creditors by paying cents on the dollar owed, and usually paying it in stock and not cash.

Like you, I suspect that UA will show a very large profit for the quarter they emerge from BK. Unfortunately, just like US, that will consist of a lot of non-cash "gains" from stiffing those unsecured creditors, terminating/freezing retirement plans, dropping/modifying retiree medical, etc. In other words, showing as income those pre-BK bills that they aren't paying, as well as all the savings from retirement, medical, etc changes.

Heck, US reported over a $1 billion (with a B) profit the quarter it emerged from BK1. Yet less than 2 years later we filed for BK2. Hopefully, UA will fare better.

Jim

 

[2BorNot2B]

2BorN2B,
The incident in question was one in which a 747-400 at MTOGW injested a large bird just after V1.

Thanks for that very fine reply and clarification. In all my years a V-1 "cut " was a training term for simulated (or in earlier years, actual shutdown) engine failure on T/O. I guess Rhino failed to choose the right words to describe the incident. Yeah ..... keeping the "ball" centered is something that has to be really drilled into Pilots in the Sim. Thanks for the "Bunkie" definition! I like that! Never heard that term at U before I retired. ( that is, USAir)

Happy New Year!

2B

 

[2BorNot2B]

If I may throw my thoughts out on the table ... after we started flying to the West Coast I made many trips thru PHX. (In fact my "last Flight" was after a Phx Ron) I carefully watched the SW operation and was VERY impressed by their flying! My impression was " these Guys are SHARP". Yeah, they were fast and efficient ... at the same time safe! Now that was 1994 ... so I do not know if things have drastically changed. My biggest regret is that I did not buy Stock in such a great operation! Why?? Because they presented a great threat to my Airline!! And that indeed turned out to be true!

The only reason I have not flown on SW is the "cattle-car" approach for pax., but that has nothing to do with their impressive Flight Ops!

Happy New Year to All ...

2B

 

[mga707]

You sir are a passenger, a customer. You're now longer so much as a shareholder. Your opinions are based on what you see staring out the side window, and even then from a frame of knowledge that doesn't afford you the ability to make valid judgements on what is right and what is wrong, what is safe and what isn't. There are disparate opinions on the effects of SWA's culture from various people who actually DO have the knowledge to form an opinion. The are from all sides of the spectrum. I'm not going to say my opinion is the correct one. It's mine. Rhino thinks his is the correct one. The differance is, both of us have some level of knowledge from which we can form a valid opinion. You'd be wise to read them and cease looking foolish by saying things like how fast you think someone is taxiing based on your view from 12A.

Pompous ASS! Pompous ASS! Pompous ASS!
There. Now i'll go back to ignoring the jerk. PLEASE, KC, do the same! Maybe then he'll finally go away, or at least go back to that loser airline's board where he belongs...

 

[Busdrvr]

Pompous ASS! Pompous ASS! Pompous ASS!
There. Now i'll go back to ignoring the jerk. PLEASE, KC, do the same! Maybe then he'll finally go away, or at least go back to that loser airline's board where he belongs...

Hey Rhino, is this another one of your "SWA professionals"? My, are you guys impressive....