Little chance of completing the merger.....

[luv2fly]

And you don't think DL ALPA is posturing too? They're just trying to get as much money out of Parker as well. Once they do, they will be on board like the rest of the creditors.

No I don't. As a Delta pilot, there is little Doug could offer that would make this offer appealing. The DL pilot group is far more junior than the US group. A proposed merge would most most likely prove to be devastating to the DL side of the seniority list. In addition, a potential US merge would stagnate career progression and most likely result in more DL furloughs.

 

[MMB]

No I don't. As a Delta pilot, there is little Doug could offer that would make this offer appealing. The DL pilot group is far more junior than the US group. A proposed merge would most most likely prove to be devastating to the DL side of the seniority list. In addition, a potential US merge would stagnate career progression and most likely result in more DL furloughs.

Faced with the same situation in 1972, Delta dovetailed the Northeast Airline's and Delta Airlines senority lists.
1 - Delta senior
2 - Northeast senior
3 - Delta #2
4 - Northeast #2
5 - ...

Think the AW/US pilot's unions would go for that?

 

[bigbusboy]

No I don't. As a Delta pilot, there is little Doug could offer that would make this offer appealing. The DL pilot group is far more junior than the US group. A proposed merge would most most likely prove to be devastating to the DL side of the seniority list. In addition, a potential US merge would stagnate career progression and most likely result in more DL furloughs.

You make a point with the seniority issues. But all issues you referred to are resolved between DL ALPA and US ALPA at merger time and have nothing to do with management. They are seniority issues. I'm talking about $$$ issues: pay, pension, benefits, vacation. I don't believe for one minute ALPA, AFA, the IAM or whoever will give up a chance for more $$$ for their membership.

 

[MMB]

You make a point with the seniority issues. But all issues you referred to are resolved between DL ALPA and US ALPA at merger time and have nothing to do with management. They are seniority issues. I'm talking about $$$ issues: pay, pension, benefits, vacation. I don't believe for one minute ALPA, AFA, the IAM or whoever will give up a chance for more $$$ for their membership.

How does getting kicked back to right seat get you more $$$?
How does it further your carrier to get pegged there?

Other than pilots, Delta hasn’t dumped anyone’s pension. Frozen them, but not dumped. And the pilots are on the creditors list for their loss. Who at AW/US still has any company pension? Were any of the groups who lost their pensions compensated at all for the loss, or did AW/US just turn their back on their own?

 

[bigbusboy]

How does getting kicked back to right seat get you more $$$?
How does it further your carrier to get pegged there?

You're missing my whole point. Both ALPAs will resolve who gets bumped back to right seat and who remains in the left seat. This is still a seniority issue. Contract negotiations between magagement and ALPA deal only with the overall membership: pay raises and benefit improvements to all C/Os, F/Os...the membership; not individual issues like who gets bumped where.

Other than pilots, Delta hasn’t dumped anyone’s pension.

And this will be the carrot, I believe, Parker will use to get both ALPAs on board.

 

[MMB]

And this will be the carrot, I believe, Parker will use to get both ALPAs on board.

You're right, I don't get it.
Where's the carrot?

 

[bigbusboy]

The pension!!

 

[MMB]

The pension!!

I read US dumped all their pensions.
Not so?
If not, I'll ask again:
Who at AW/US still has any company pension? Were any of the groups who lost their pensions compensated at all for the loss, or did AW/US just turn their back on their own?

And I'll add two more:
If there is a company pension, what is the compensation loss of dropping back 10 years on the seniority list?
What kind of non-revocable personal pension could I build with the difference?

 

[bigbusboy]

And I'll add two more:
If there is a company pension, what is the compensation loss of dropping back 10 years on the seniority list?
What kind of non-revocable personal pension could I build with the difference?

If Parker offered restoration of the pensions to DL ALPA and all of the unions at US, because yes we all lost our pensions with no compensation, that would bring all of labor on board; in my opinion. I'm discussing this issue from an MEC and NC perspective, not your own individual situation or position on the seniority list. That is the carrot I'm referring to.

 

[MMB]

If Parker offered restoration of the pensions to DL ALPA and all of the unions at US, because yes we all lost our pensions with no compensation, that would bring all of labor on board; in my opinion. I'm discussing this issue from an MEC and NC perspective, not your own individual situation or position on the seniority list. That is the carrot I'm referring to.

Ok, got it. There is no carrot, but IF DP came up with the OFFER of a carrot, everybody would rush to him.
Is he really that trustworthy? I’d want to see a real carrot solidly in place before I’d consider it any kind of incentive. Still not a reason, just an enticement. And I’m not so sure it is even a very good one.

* Can the DAL pension be bought back from the PBGC?
* Could DP come up with the cash to do it?


You answered my first question, thank you, but not the two you quoted. Considering the differences in seniority between the two companies, I believe they are relevant:
* … what is the compensation loss of dropping back 10 years on the seniority list?
This would include things like bumping back to right seat or to a smaller plane, and life style demands of shorter more frequent routes, etc.
* What kind of non-revocable personal pension could I build with the difference?

 

[phasersonstun2]

No I don't. As a Delta pilot, there is little Doug could offer that would make this offer appealing. The DL pilot group is far more junior than the US group... more DL furloughs.

Dudes... and I'm talking to both groups; AW and DL. Look at the U list. Look at it closely. A triumvirate merger would place the entire combined airline in the hands of DL and AW pilot groups within 10 years. I hear from AW pilots are saying "screw 10 years, I want seniority now". In fact, rumors from the arbitration seem to be based on a scenario of obsolescence of one of the pilot groups. A totally untenable position. U never went out of business, as Delta will not go out of business.

There are U pilots with ALPA seniority out there who do NOT deserve to have it abrogated. Since we are three varied ALPA lists, then a fair solution is probably out of the question. DL is heavily international, while U is heavily short to medium east coast and AW is medium west coast.

Mergers are going to happen. They always have, and always will.

I'm an optimist. A solution that is mutually bebeficial to all pilots is out there if we want to pursue it, or we can just keep the current backbiting and name calling and dig our heels in whilst we curse the other side, all to the glee of management.

 

[pit_needs_help]

Ok, got it. There is no carrot, but IF DP came up with the OFFER of a carrot, everybody would rush to him.
Is he really that trustworthy? I’d want to see a real carrot solidly in place before I’d consider it any kind of incentive. Still not a reason, just an enticement. And I’m not so sure it is even a very good one.

* Can the DAL pension be bought back from the PBGC?
* Could DP come up with the cash to do it?
You answered my first question, thank you, but not the two you quoted. Considering the differences in seniority between the two companies, I believe they are relevant:
* … what is the compensation loss of dropping back 10 years on the seniority list?
This would include things like bumping back to right seat or to a smaller plane, and life style demands of shorter more frequent routes, etc.
* What kind of non-revocable personal pension could I build with the difference?

The pensions have to go and stay that way. It does not work any other way.

 

[michael707767]

There are U pilots with ALPA seniority out there who do NOT deserve to have it abrogated. Since we are three varied ALPA lists, then a fair solution is probably out of the question.

What is ALPA seniority? There is no such thing. You hold seniority at your company, period. We don't merge via ALPA seniority. You merge one companies list with another companies list. So called ALPA seniority has no play in that.

Tell me, if USAir was merging with say Comair, would you be preaching "ALPA" seniority?

 

[bigbusboy]

* Can the DAL pension be bought back from the PBGC?
* Could DP come up with the cash to do it?
[/quote]


To your first question, I don't know. I'm not sure what the legalities are there. But, isn't the PBGC on the creditor's committee? If they are, I'm sure there's some discussion going on.

To answer your second question, and I'm not trying to sound flippant. I think he did with the $8 billion.

As to Doug's trustworthiness, that's up for grabs. The HP people seem to even still love him. They keep refering back to his stance with the gov't backed loan after 9/11. When he first went to the feds for the loan, they approved it so long as he cut the labor costs. He said no way. The employees at HP have sacrficed enough and I'm not going to ask for more. He told the feds: "we'll find another way." They approved the loan after that statement.....as the story goes. But I have seen him do some pretty stupid things in terms of labor within this past year. Time and events will be the judge on this issue.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Forget getting the pension back.....

ATLANTA (AP) -- There is no guarantee that US Airways' unsolicited buyout offer of Delta will ever be consummated, but it surely will fall through if the pilots' pension plan at Delta is not terminated, lawyers for Delta's unsecured creditors committee said Tuesday.

Article

Jim