LET THE BLAME GAME BEGIN!

[AWA320]

You guys keep letting these idiots run your LEC's and they will most certainly cost you everything!!


Dear Philly Pilots,

Yesterday, Dave did a terrific job in our Fastread of outlining the many problems with trying to fix the Nicolau Award. You may know by now that tomorrow Captain Prater has summoned the East and West MEC officers and ALPA National council, Mike Abram, to DC for a little get together in the hopes of getting the two groups closer together than they have been since the announcement of the Nicolau Award. Your US Air MEC will be in session today at 3:00 for a special meeting called by LGA-PIT and PHL. The special meeting is being called in order to give direction to our officers and Merger Committee. For Dave and I, the focus will be on directing our participants on what “not to doâ€. We, (Dave and I), do not want this Nicolau Award “fixedâ€.

There is a very interesting dynamic taking place on the MEC level over the last week or so. Recently there has been some blame, casting aspersions from our MEC Chairman and reportedly, one of our JNC negotiators. Our MEC Chairman, Jack Stephan, told Dave and I we are where we are with the Nicolau Award essentially because of our hard line date of hire stance during the mediation/arbitration process. In addition, Captain Butkovic is reported to have told folks on the West “they got what they deserved for not negotiating the listâ€. Wow! If anyone wants someone to blame, you can start with me and Dave!

Jack, by the way, is the same MEC Chairman who was in shock for days after the Nicolau Award, cautioned Dave and I against causing a ruckus in DC over it, actually had Arnie yank mention of our busses on a code-a-phone on May 16th telling us, “it’s the MEC code-a-phone, not the Council 41 code-a-phoneâ€, then on the 17th, wanted to turn the whole thing into an MEC event (which we happily obliged) but directed Arnie to nix the publicity because he wanted to keep our dispute with ALPA, “in houseâ€.


Captain Butkovic is the fellow who never saw a deal he couldn’t negotiate. Then came the Nicolau Award and strangely the table is being set for tomorrow’s meeting in DC.

Parity

What the hell does parity have to do with the crisis the Association has with the US Air pilots and the crisis the company has with the Nicolau Award and the crisisALPA has with the precedent this award sets? It has nothing to do with the situation but don’t tell that to Butkovic and Stephan. As a matter of fact parity may well be a Trojan horse time bomb for both, ALPA and the company. It will no doubt convince many on this property who think they are among the chosen few, but so far still sympathetic to the juniorities plight, to abandon them! The dumb ones in all three corners may think that parity with the West will:

improve the company’s dismal performance (checked the news lately?), and
save the Association on the property, and
save the Association period, and
(here’s the kicker) actually be the result of some stellar negotiating!?!
Let’s face it: the ball on this was dropped a long time ago in order for it to be the right thing to do for the right reason. Now it is no more than a bribe or a bet. Both will fail. This recent parity talk is no more than a magicians ruse designed to take your eyes off the matters at hand.

Where the hell did the idea come from Jack, Kim, and Donn? We have a crisis on our hands. The Association has a crisis on its hands. The company has a crisis on its hands and it doesn’t need any help screwing this airline up. What do you say we focus ONLY on the crisis at hand? Money will NOT fix the Nicolau Award. NOTHING can fix the Nicolau Award! It is an extremely dangerous precedent against seniority and ALPA’s future existence!

And that may be exactly what the company wants! (Think: “Mr. Glass†and his union-busting consulting group!)

Here’s a little background for those of you not in the know. I am actually in this boat myself; since I am the only MEC member to NOT sign a confidentiality agreement and NOT get the full Monty from the company about the proposed Delta deal. I probably overhear more than most of you, however. The Delta deal….150-175 extra airplanes, 1000 + or – extra pilots, and millions, I mean millions, to pay Delta guys to sit on their ass and do nothing (of course they didn’t tell us they were going to try to screw us out of those millions and millions budgeted to pay the Delta guys to sit on their hands). Now let’s just say there is another deal and Nicolau is in place. Money thrown at F/Os will not survive the next deal…and ALPA will not survive if a 20 year US Air guy hits the street before a four year AW pilot. I will not support promoting a “fix†to the Nicolau Award which allows this scenario, nor will I support anyone who promotes such a fix.

Those of us who have been around for a while are longing for a time when we can return to a working environment that we used to enjoy at our former airline. It will never happen with this Nicolau Award in place, and parity won’t get us closer to it. We need to get down to the business of a new solution to this seniority integration in order to continue on the path for a single working agreement. That’s the goal. That should be the only business before us at the moment.

For those of you who think I’m crazy about not wanting to take the dough, sorry, I just think it’s a diversion at the moment and ultimately it will sabotage our goal of reaching a single collective bargaining agreement. The single agreement is what is needed for us all to move forward together. Recent intelligence from a well placed management type is that the company never has nor do they have now a plan to merge the two groups anytime soon. Original plans were from ’09 but now they realize it will be well after that. I’d almost bet it’s the company’s idea anyway. They need to stop the company’s slide down the toilet (by anyone’s’ estimation) and do you really think Jack and Butkovic would have set themselves up for failure by inventing the prospect of parity for the US Airways pilots in the middle of such a crisis that this pilot group in? I don’t, so if parity is thrown at us in the near future, beware of the motives. Do not take your eye off the walnut shell….and don’t give ‘em anything for it!

Eric

 

[traderjake]

It's because of the PHL and PIT Reps, and the pilots who elect them, that our current contract is less than what the company offered.

"You Can't Fix Stupid"

 

[USA320Pilot]

AWA320,

AWA320 said: "You guys keep letting these idiots run your LEC's and they will most certainly cost you everything!!"

USA320Pilot comments: What you do not understand is that the only thing the majority of the pilots believe they have left is their seniority.

The pilots have taken 42% to 70% pay cuts, they lost their DB retirement plan, and they lost their retiree health care.

The vast majority of the pilot group is ready to go to war over the seniority integration issue and they believe if it costs everything (for the AWA pilots too) than "so what."

Regards,

USA320Pilot

 

[700UW]

You did not lose your DB plan, Bill Pollack and your MEC gave it up without a vote.

And as far as your paycuts and retiree healthcare, I do believe you pilots have not seen a concession you did not like and vote for.

And your not the only group that took hits.

 

[AWA320]

AWA320,

AWA320 said: "You guys keep letting these idiots run your LEC's and they will most certainly cost you everything!!"

USA320Pilot comments: What you do not understand is that the only thing the majority of the pilots believe they have left is their seniority.

Not true!! You have a golden opportunity to recoup most of the pay and benefits you lost over the years. What you and a few others seem to keep missng is that without this arranged marriage AAA would have liquidated, it's that simple.

The pilots have taken 42% to 70% pay cuts, they lost their DB retirement plan, and they lost their retiree health care.

According to the post above your nut cases in PHL and Pitt played hard ball and lost even more than you would have had you just taken the deal!! You guys let emotion rule your moves and they are costly. Look up the definition of insanity, repeating the same thing over and over and each time expecting a different result.

The vast majority of the pilot group is ready to go to war over the seniority integration issue and they believe if it costs everything (for the AWA pilots too) than "so what."

Then you are stupid!! You stand to lose everything this time over something that you can not win. Sometimes you have to just pick up the pieces regroup and move on and hopefully you get back some of what was lost. The AAA story is not unique. This saga has been played out in many businesses and many lives throughout the world. You need to start thinking smart for a change and stop this nonsense of wanting to gamble all you have left on one roll of the dice!
Regards,

USA320Pilot

Fraternally

West brother.

 

[USA320Pilot]

700UW,

Bill Pollock had no vote over the contract change that permitted DB Plan termination and replacing it with a DC Plan. Only MEC Representatives can vote on this or any other issue. Without the termination of DB Plan ALPA’s financial and legal advisors said the company could not emerge from bankruptcy, thus, the MEC decided it was better to continue to "live for another day" than to have the airline liquidated. Does that make sense? According to eveyr ALPA advisor It was the options were either "No Compay/No DB Plan" or a "Company/No DB Plan".

In regard to your comment of “and as far as your paycuts and retiree healthcare, I do believe you pilots have not seen a concession you did not like and vote for,â€￾ I believe every reasonable person on this board recognizes nobody likes a concession, but every union at every legacy airline took concessions because they believed it was better than the alternative.

I recognize every group took hits, but no group took a greater percentage hit than the pilots.

Regards,

USA320Pilot

 

[saabslime]

You guys keep letting these idiots run your LEC's and they will most certainly cost you everything!!
Dear Philly Pilots,

Yesterday, Dave did a terrific job in our Fastread of outlining the many problems with trying to fix the Nicolau Award. You may know by now that tomorrow Captain Prater has summoned the East and West MEC officers and ALPA National council, Mike Abram, to DC for a little get together in the hopes of getting the two groups closer together than they have been since the announcement of the Nicolau Award. Your US Air MEC will be in session today at 3:00 for a special meeting called by LGA-PIT and PHL. The special meeting is being called in order to give direction to our officers and Merger Committee. For Dave and I, the focus will be on directing our participants on what “not to doâ€. We, (Dave and I), do not want this Nicolau Award “fixedâ€.

There is a very interesting dynamic taking place on the MEC level over the last week or so. Recently there has been some blame, casting aspersions from our MEC Chairman and reportedly, one of our JNC negotiators. Our MEC Chairman, Jack Stephan, told Dave and I we are where we are with the Nicolau Award essentially because of our hard line date of hire stance during the mediation/arbitration process. In addition, Captain Butkovic is reported to have told folks on the West “they got what they deserved for not negotiating the listâ€. Wow! If anyone wants someone to blame, you can start with me and Dave!

Jack, by the way, is the same MEC Chairman who was in shock for days after the Nicolau Award, cautioned Dave and I against causing a ruckus in DC over it, actually had Arnie yank mention of our busses on a code-a-phone on May 16th telling us, “it’s the MEC code-a-phone, not the Council 41 code-a-phoneâ€, then on the 17th, wanted to turn the whole thing into an MEC event (which we happily obliged) but directed Arnie to nix the publicity because he wanted to keep our dispute with ALPA, “in houseâ€.
Captain Butkovic is the fellow who never saw a deal he couldn’t negotiate. Then came the Nicolau Award and strangely the table is being set for tomorrow’s meeting in DC.

Parity

What the hell does parity have to do with the crisis the Association has with the US Air pilots and the crisis the company has with the Nicolau Award and the crisisALPA has with the precedent this award sets? It has nothing to do with the situation but don’t tell that to Butkovic and Stephan. As a matter of fact parity may well be a Trojan horse time bomb for both, ALPA and the company. It will no doubt convince many on this property who think they are among the chosen few, but so far still sympathetic to the juniorities plight, to abandon them! The dumb ones in all three corners may think that parity with the West will:

improve the company’s dismal performance (checked the news lately?), and
save the Association on the property, and
save the Association period, and
(here’s the kicker) actually be the result of some stellar negotiating!?!
Let’s face it: the ball on this was dropped a long time ago in order for it to be the right thing to do for the right reason. Now it is no more than a bribe or a bet. Both will fail. This recent parity talk is no more than a magicians ruse designed to take your eyes off the matters at hand.

Where the hell did the idea come from Jack, Kim, and Donn? We have a crisis on our hands. The Association has a crisis on its hands. The company has a crisis on its hands and it doesn’t need any help screwing this airline up. What do you say we focus ONLY on the crisis at hand? Money will NOT fix the Nicolau Award. NOTHING can fix the Nicolau Award! It is an extremely dangerous precedent against seniority and ALPA’s future existence!

And that may be exactly what the company wants! (Think: “Mr. Glass†and his union-busting consulting group!)

Here’s a little background for those of you not in the know. I am actually in this boat myself; since I am the only MEC member to NOT sign a confidentiality agreement and NOT get the full Monty from the company about the proposed Delta deal. I probably overhear more than most of you, however. The Delta deal….150-175 extra airplanes, 1000 + or – extra pilots, and millions, I mean millions, to pay Delta guys to sit on their ass and do nothing (of course they didn’t tell us they were going to try to screw us out of those millions and millions budgeted to pay the Delta guys to sit on their hands). Now let’s just say there is another deal and Nicolau is in place. Money thrown at F/Os will not survive the next deal…and ALPA will not survive if a 20 year US Air guy hits the street before a four year AW pilot. I will not support promoting a “fix†to the Nicolau Award which allows this scenario, nor will I support anyone who promotes such a fix.

Those of us who have been around for a while are longing for a time when we can return to a working environment that we used to enjoy at our former airline. It will never happen with this Nicolau Award in place, and parity won’t get us closer to it. We need to get down to the business of a new solution to this seniority integration in order to continue on the path for a single working agreement. That’s the goal. That should be the only business before us at the moment.

For those of you who think I’m crazy about not wanting to take the dough, sorry, I just think it’s a diversion at the moment and ultimately it will sabotage our goal of reaching a single collective bargaining agreement. The single agreement is what is needed for us all to move forward together. Recent intelligence from a well placed management type is that the company never has nor do they have now a plan to merge the two groups anytime soon. Original plans were from ’09 but now they realize it will be well after that. I’d almost bet it’s the company’s idea anyway. They need to stop the company’s slide down the toilet (by anyone’s’ estimation) and do you really think Jack and Butkovic would have set themselves up for failure by inventing the prospect of parity for the US Airways pilots in the middle of such a crisis that this pilot group in? I don’t, so if parity is thrown at us in the near future, beware of the motives. Do not take your eye off the walnut shell….and don’t give ‘em anything for it!

Eric

What a drama queen :jerry: WE HAVE A CRISIS!!!
Some of you east guys should really start charging admission for this stuff. Best comedy act I've seen in a while.

 

[brokenwrench]

You did not lose your DB plan, Bill Pollack and your MEC gave it up without a vote.

And as far as your paycuts and retiree healthcare, I do believe you pilots have not seen a concession you did not like and vote for.

And your not the only group that took hits.

As you are a supporter of the IAM I do not see how you can throw rocks at any other groups participation in the "race to the bottom!"

 

[ussnark]

It's because of the PHL and PIT Reps, and the pilots who elect them, that our current contract is less than what the company offered.

"You Can't Fix Stupid"

For purposes of "one rep equals one vote", did the PHL reps constitute a majority?

Did the number of PHL pilots compared to the total number of pilots (roll call) constitute a majority?

Are you one of those moronic pilots who bought onto the "get a deal at any price" from Garland Jones, that exposed us to further incursions on the contract from Glass?

and BTW, how did you value "before" vs "after"? Did you use the ALPA Intl numbers that showed the contract gaining in value by delaying vs the "original" package that some of the cry-babies wanted to sign onto?

We CAN fix ignorance. Yours, specifically.

 

[AWA320]

For purposes of "one rep equals one vote", did the PHL reps constitute a majority?

Did the number of PHL pilots compared to the total number of pilots (roll call) constitute a majority?

Are you one of those moronic pilots who bought onto the "get a deal at any price" from Garland Jones, that exposed us to further incursions on the contract from Glass?

and BTW, how did you value "before" vs "after"? Did you use the ALPA Intl numbers that showed the contract gaining in value by delaying vs the "original" package that some of the cry-babies wanted to sign onto?

We CAN fix ignorance. Yours, specifically.

Most of what you've stated here is and internal east debate but I do have a question based on one statement you made and the resulted outcome.

The "before vs after" arguement, how did you arrive at if you waited in a depressed market with a carrier in serious trouble at the time that your contract would improve??? Now being 100% serious in my asking, AAA was bleeding money at an alarming rate and on it's way to becomming a regional carrier. Large a/c were being returned in favor of RJ's and by waiting like you did you took more of a hit, WHY???? Couldn't you see what was happening all around you?? This is what I mean when I said emotion running your show. Emotion has no place in business PERIOD!!

 

[Bob Loblaw]

According to eveyr ALPA advisor It was the options were either "No Compay/No DB Plan" or a "Company/No DB Plan".
----------------------------------------------------
I had no idea that one contract section had the company hanging in the balance of survival or liquidation. Thanks for the revelation!

 

[careerfurloughee]

Sometimes you have to just pick up the pieces regroup and move on and hopefully you get back some of what was lost. The AAA story is not unique. This saga has been played out in many businesses and many lives throughout the world. You need to start thinking smart for a change and stop this nonsense of wanting to gamble all you have left on one roll of the dice!

"Live to fight another day" kind of thing? I've heard that before somewhere.

 

[AWA320]

"Live to fight another day" kind of thing? I've heard that before somewhere.

I know! Really I know. Not to be funny or insulting at all but sometimes it just makes more sense to take what's left and try to rebuild on that.

 

[nostradamus]

I know! Really I know. Not to be funny or insulting at all but sometimes it just makes more sense to take what's left and try to rebuild on that.

Walk a mile in another man's shoes (proverb)

“Whoever undertakes to set himself up as a judge of Truth and Knowledge is shipwrecked by the laughter of the gods.â€￾

Albert Einstein quotes

 

[Tim Nelson]

AWA320,

AWA320 said: "You guys keep letting these idiots run your LEC's and they will most certainly cost you everything!!"

USA320Pilot comments: What you do not understand is that the only thing the majority of the pilots believe they have left is their seniority.

The pilots have taken 42% to 70% pay cuts, they lost their DB retirement plan, and they lost their retiree health care.

The vast majority of the pilot group is ready to go to war over the seniority integration issue and they believe if it costs everything (for the AWA pilots too) than "so what."

Regards,

USA320Pilot

I'm LMAO at how ignorant 700uw's statements were to you. The IAm went to US AIRWAYS and proposed wacking the fleet people with a 48 million concession just to get their own IAM pension plan started. It was the second biggest concession that fleet ever took. I know because I sat on the committee at the time.

regards,