FireMePlease
Newbie
- Dec 13, 2005
- 1
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NEW AMFA PICKET SIGNS: "OOPS" 
Left with no choice...
- Thread starter mplscenter
- Start date
So in hindsight, you'd suggest that AMFA has handled this in a manner that was the most beneficial for their members as a whole? At least AMFA would have had a seat at the table during the bankrupcy process, instead of being on the outside begging for handouts. It was patently obvious to all independent observers that AMFA basically had no leg to stand on in these negotiations, and AMFA members chose to ignore this reality. If the members would have been educated by AMFA about the true economics of the situation, they would have been crazy to not vote for it.
Very ironic. You start you're email by calling me an idiot, and then you make the same erroneous comment made by several other people on this board concerning airfares. I can't keep repeating very obvious facts about airfare pricing. Apparently those clueless about the pricing power of LCCs will keep repeating the same ignorant theme. Obviously, it would be great if NWA could increase fares, but if that results in less revenue on a given flight, then obviously it's not right course.
As far as smoking cigar thing, obviously you say that in jest. Otherwise your other points lose all credibility. As you know, assigning evil intent on those that you disagree with is a very low form of human thought.
dc3fanatic
Senior
- Mar 17, 2005
- 361
- 0
So, why are they offering anything again?
I didn't think they needed AMFA, so why are they bothering?
PlayTheOdds
Veteran
If this isn't the king of back-peddlers and passing the buck. After screwing this to no end AMFA is actually going to try and pawn this fiasco off on the members. Unbelievable!
Does anyone here actually condone this statement? Does anyone here think there is more to this vote than AMFA passing the buck?
AMFA didn't screw this up. The membership was pinned in the corner by the company and an anti-union administration. This contract would have NEVER passed-how could it? Would more than 50% vote on a contract that laid-off 50%?
NWA NEVER intended to bargain in good faith. They began planning this whole trap well in advance. While NW was "bargaining in good faith" NW was hiring strike breakers. The whole bargaining process is being attacked from the top down.
Let me ask you a question. How come in 2001 the AMFA members at NW where not allowed to strike after years of negotiating with NW yet in less than a year in 2005 the negotiations process is over and the government does not step in as it had in 2001?
The whole deal was a screw job designed to punish a union that doesn't rub elbows or play ball like the rest of them.
There was a mistake AMFA made in my opinion not having the membership stay on their jobs and forcing the company to lock them out. That way there would not have been any dispute whether it was a lockout or a strike. NW would have had had too much invested in their strike breakers not to lock the AMFA members out.
Why is it that NW would not permit the services of mediator or an arbitrator in negotiations? NW would not negotiate one item. Hardly what I call the give and take of normal negotiations.
AMFA had two choices: be forced into a strike or bring a contract back that would never pass. Which would you pick?
How you guys can defend a bunch of deadbeats like NW is beyond me. Sheep like you would have perceived Hitler's demands of 1939 as reasonable requests that were doable under the circumstances.
NWA NEVER intended to bargain in good faith. They began planning this whole trap well in advance. While NW was "bargaining in good faith" NW was hiring strike breakers. The whole bargaining process is being attacked from the top down.
Let me ask you a question. How come in 2001 the AMFA members at NW where not allowed to strike after years of negotiating with NW yet in less than a year in 2005 the negotiations process is over and the government does not step in as it had in 2001?
The whole deal was a screw job designed to punish a union that doesn't rub elbows or play ball like the rest of them.
There was a mistake AMFA made in my opinion not having the membership stay on their jobs and forcing the company to lock them out. That way there would not have been any dispute whether it was a lockout or a strike. NW would have had had too much invested in their strike breakers not to lock the AMFA members out.
Why is it that NW would not permit the services of mediator or an arbitrator in negotiations? NW would not negotiate one item. Hardly what I call the give and take of normal negotiations.
AMFA had two choices: be forced into a strike or bring a contract back that would never pass. Which would you pick?
How you guys can defend a bunch of deadbeats like NW is beyond me. Sheep like you would have perceived Hitler's demands of 1939 as reasonable requests that were doable under the circumstances.
Here's one thing I don't understand - the union had an offer that kept nearly 3000 jobs. In the spirit of solidarity and unity, why wouldn't union leadership expect the "53%" to vote yes, and save the jobs of their brothers? Isn't that better than saving zero jobs?
All the posturing and chest-thumping when any reasonable individual would sit down, do the math, and figure out the only way to a successful outcome was to accept the company's last best offer.
The golden goose is still alive, but you guys are too busy trying to kill it instead of collecting those golden eggs.
All the posturing and chest-thumping when any reasonable individual would sit down, do the math, and figure out the only way to a successful outcome was to accept the company's last best offer.
The golden goose is still alive, but you guys are too busy trying to kill it instead of collecting those golden eggs.
PlayTheOdds
Veteran
Northwest needs this strike to end. AMFA is the only one that can call this thing off. Though nothing is left of this strike other than a piece of paper it is still there and Northwest wants the books cleaned up. If AMFA votes no, AMFA looks like bigger idiots than they already are. If AMFA votes yes then the public will view Northwest as if it has been struggling to work with AMFA all along. NWA stacked the deck and AMFA got played big time.
NewHampshire Black Bears
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- Aug 20, 2002
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OP
mplscenter
Newbie
- Nov 27, 2005
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- #24
I agree. Strategic management at its best. It is painfully obvious that this is exactly the outcome management planned to save the "company". Even if AMFA had allowed a vote on the first offer and, by some off chance, members actually voted to put half of their brothers out of work, we would see the same situation... File for Ch 11, void contract, Lay-off union members. That was the goal of management's efforts. The union had NO CHOICE. Either way, members were screwed.
The executive team will view these efforts as positive steps toward saving the "company". Unfortunatly, in the eyes of top management, the company does not include the employees.
Some measure the value of the company by the dedication of the proud employees working day and night to serve our customers (the traveling public), and keep the airline running smoothly.
Others see the company as the price on a stock certificate, paint on a fleet of shiny new A330s that you paid cash for, bonuses for dedicated corporate executives who proudly serve THEIR customers (the stockholders, not the employees, not the traveling public). Management does not care... about their employees, about their vendors, about the travaling public. These are just tool to serve the stockholders, and their own self interests. They are playing a completely different game. Hmm... what would be the quickest way to earn some money for the stockholders and get ourselves another fat bonus? I know, how about laying-off over half the workforce and pay the rest minimum wage? Oh wait, legal says we can't do that because of our union contracts and it might look bad... time to make a plan... discuss ways of "reducing labor costs" while maintaining our public image... to make our stockholders happy.
Seems like their strategic plan has worked so far. They accomplished their goal of "reducing labor costs". Too bad for those who trusted and believed that management actually cared about the lives of their employees, other that how it affected the stock price or the public image of the "company".
robbedagain
Veteran
- Oct 13, 2003
- 11,125
- 2,676
how is NWA going to make themselves look like their were struggling with AMFA if AMFA passes this so called contract? NWA has never wanted to negogiate in faith what so ever. the way NWA handled this entire thing makes themselves look even worse than when Judge Stephen Mitchell abroggated our contracts at USAIR.
OP
mplscenter
Newbie
- Nov 27, 2005
- 11
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- Thread starter
- #26
The act of making an offer, any offer, to union members at this point gives the APPEARANCE that nwa is "continuing to negotiate" with the union. We all know that the negotiations were staged. This latest offer is yet another public relations stunt. The sole purpose of this action is to improve the damaged public image of nwa management. They do not care whether or not AMFA members accept or reject the offer. Just by offering, they score points with the media and their investors. They have no intention of bringing back union members, unless they are willing to do a lot more for a whole lot less, like the employees who are on the property working right now.
By voting YES, union members will admit that all that the union stands for has been lost, striking yet another depressing blow to the entire US labor movement. Collect the peanuts offered by management and be on your way, perhaps the responsible thing to do if the situation has left you desparate and completely out of options, however many in this position are already back to work for nwa under the new terms of employment.
By voting NO, members will make a final PROTEST against nwa management, and the public, that the actions of nwa management are UNACCEPTABLE. Although nothing else would be gained, at least you could keep your dignity and self respect.
Either way, you're still screwed.
dc3fanatic
Senior
- Mar 17, 2005
- 361
- 0
NHBB, most of your posts anymore are just yelling insults. I have this image of a die hard union worker that can't see past his union, and would let loose a fit of rage if ever meeting a replacement worker. It feels like a very bad place to be emotionally. (just my opinion)
To the rest of the board, I still haven't heard any compelling reason as to why NWA is even bothering to talk to AMFA, unless they anticipate needing more workers when the next summer schedule hits . . . put an 'official' end to the strike and then get some of the x-union members to come back to work.
OP
mplscenter
Newbie
- Nov 27, 2005
- 11
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- Thread Starter
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- #28
The Northwest Airlines mechanic strike is much like the Air Traffic Controller strike back in 1981. They went on strike and the administration replaced them, permenantly. Check out the PATCO (former controller union) website. Many of those controllers never again worked in their beloved profession. Today, the replacement Air Traffic Controllers are once again unionized, facing the same problems that the original controllers faced back in 1981, staff shortages, equipment problems, etc. Check out the NATCA (current controller union) website. The administration has already outsoursed all of their flight service stations to a contractors and are seeking to privatize even more control towers. They are seeking significant cuts in pay and benefits from the remaining controllers, and apparently, there is talk about the new work rules that would cap controller pay for new hires at about 60% of what the average controller earns, and eliminate location differential, which would further reduce their pay.
The situation at nwa is not much different. The replacements are not going away. We know that they may eventually become dissatisfied with the working conditions and once again begin to unionize in an attampt to resolve the situation. Good luck with that. You can see how well this has worked for others. Once you reach a point where your profession is earning near double the income of the average American, strikes do not work. You do not have public support because even with reductions, you still earn well above average wages, so Joe Public does not feel sorry for you. There are too many people who would love to take your job and are willing to suffer through the less than favorable working conditions, since these conditions are not much worse than where ever they are coming from.
It happened to the PATCO controllers in '81, it is happening again with the AMFA mechanics at nwa.
The situation at nwa is not much different. The replacements are not going away. We know that they may eventually become dissatisfied with the working conditions and once again begin to unionize in an attampt to resolve the situation. Good luck with that. You can see how well this has worked for others. Once you reach a point where your profession is earning near double the income of the average American, strikes do not work. You do not have public support because even with reductions, you still earn well above average wages, so Joe Public does not feel sorry for you. There are too many people who would love to take your job and are willing to suffer through the less than favorable working conditions, since these conditions are not much worse than where ever they are coming from.
It happened to the PATCO controllers in '81, it is happening again with the AMFA mechanics at nwa.
Garfield1966
Veteran
Sounds kinda of like each member wants to save their own ass to me. If you're a team like you say, the 50% who were going to get canned anyway should have allowed the rest to stay employeed if they chose to but instead they sunck the whole ship. Yea ... Gooooo Team. They did not work together any more than us mangement folks with no union work together. When it comes to survival, you look out for your self. It's survival instinct. You think the guy next to you won;t sell you butt down the river to keep his butt dry? Are you really that stupid?
People keep mentioning public opinion in this thread. I submit that the general public couldn't give a rat's ### about NWA employees or managment. As long as they can afford to fly and get where they want to go when they want to get there, THEY JUST DON'T CARE! Nobody on this board needs to consider public opinion when making life-altering decisions.
