LavMan said:
Ata, according to amfa they have not reached the 50% plateau yet, go check your sources, cards are dropping off everyday.
And if you think I am throwing stones, all I am doing is the same as you and your amfa buddies, it is ok for them to post false information and I am the bad guy when you are proven wrong?
If that is the way you think then there is not point in having a conversation.
Because people are pissed off and don't realize what is happening in the industry is not the IAM's fault, but they cant get past thinking with their emotions rather then using logic.
The IAM did not go knocking on CCY's door, look around the industry, amfa only represented one major carrier until recently, and that was NWA, the healthiest of all the airlines, but they have lost 4,500 mechanics since amfa took over and amfa has a 38% farmout rate which NWA is farming out 45%, amfa has a no layoff clause in NWA contract that is one member is on layoff they cant farmout work, then why are there 4,500 less mechanics at NWA now?
Why should I support a union that feels mechanics are gods and the "and relateds" are scum? Why did the mechanics get a higher % raise and the cleaners less at NWA? Why did amfa not get a 85 point plan?
So tell me how is amfa any better?
All due apologies to ata36bg, but I'd like to dissect a bit more:
Lav Man ( " ):
"Ata, according to amfa they have not reached the 50% plateau yet, go check your sources, cards are dropping off everyday."
---Check your own sources, and not Mr Roach's shots from the hip...whom you're merely paraphrasing. On one point I'll give you partial credit...partial; cards are dropping off...but new ones are being submitted with a fervor. If you're so confident of AMFA's immenent failure to file for a vote, then you should have nothing to worry about, right?
"And if you think I am throwing stones, all I am doing is the same as you and your amfa buddies, it is ok for them to post false information and I am the bad guy when you are proven wrong?"
---Every single one of your anti-AMFA talking points was thoroughly debunked, and yet you:
1) Fail to answer, much less debate, the exact point directly, by either...
a) ignoring the post as though it did not exist
B) bring up matters unrelated to the original point, only to imply that you've
successfully counter-attacked and won the original argument. This is the
classic "strawman" argument/tactic.
2) Repeatedly attempt to "win" an argument by posting the same plattitudes like a rubber stamp...ie: through sheer repetition. That is: a statement made by you is "true" in your eyes if it is un-rebutted. It's like watching C-span congressional/senate debates where some participants never engage each other directly point-for-point- but rather, just state their piece, as if intimidating the opponent by their sheer steadfastness.
To wit: You have proved no one wrong on a factual basis of the exact issues, and your opponents were not posting false information: You were at the same meetings we were and heard everything we did. To come out of those informational meetings and make statements to the contrary ( some of them answers to YOUR own questions ) can only be interpreted as either:
1) Exceptionally short memeory
2) Deliberate distortion/Monumentally dellusional
If you want the bad guy label, then...............
"If that is the way you think then there is not point in having a conversation."
---Such a non-specific, desperate statement is about as close as we'll ever get to a "touche" from you.
---"Because people are pissed off and don't realize what is happening in the industry is not the IAM's fault, but they cant get past thinking with their emotions rather then using logic."
---You align yourself so devotedly to a group that touts "strength in numbers", and yet dismiss others, in yet increasingly greater numbers, voting with their feet as thinking with their emotions because they disagree with you now. I guess there was a profound mutation of humans over time.
"The IAM did not go knocking on CCY's door, look around the industry, amfa only represented one major carrier until recently"
---And AMFA did not go knocking on anybody's door either. It took a grassroots effort to generate enough support to gain the critical mass to formally organize. Make no mistake: It was not ever a "raid",....Mutiny would be a better word.
"and that was NWA, the healthiest of all the airlines"
---Yeah...and?
"but they have lost 4,500 mechanics since amfa took over"
---This is the most egregious "factual error" ( AHEM ) that you continue to spew, and continue to deny statements to the contrary. Right now, NWA employs ( just slightly ) over 6000 mechanics...not 4500. I'll tell you what: Given your supposed acumen, and your pull with the IAM, surely an IAM official will attend the upcoming AMFA informational meeting in PHL, and at at your behest get the skinny. Word on the floor is that a certain officer of the IAM has left E-mails unanswered asking same.."
"and amfa has a 38% farmout rate which NWA is farming out 45%, amfa has a no layoff clause in NWA contract that is one member is on layoff they cant farmout work, then why are there 4,500 less mechanics at NWA now?"
---Again, as I've mused in an earlier post, be prepared to fall on the same sword you wield so flagrantly: AMFA's farmout limit is 38% of TOTAL LABOR COST. You are quite smitten with the DOT table you try to beat everybody over the head with that shows AMFA farming out 44% by their figures...yet you accept, without demur, the 50% farmout figure for USAirways...all the stating that our present farm-out situation is better than NWA's. Just which figures do you want. It's all or nothing...no "one from column A" stuff.
"Why should I support a union that feels mechanics are gods and the "and relateds" are scum? Why did the mechanics get a higher % raise and the cleaners less at NWA? Why did amfa not get a 85 point plan?".....So tell me how is amfa any better?"
---Can't help with inferiority complexes, but I imagine it's based on the resposibilty and relative differences in inherent bargaining power.
Why better? like ata36bg says, this BB wouldn't do justice, but here's the basics:
1) More focused...less slices of pie to divvy out
2) Small "national"/less beaurocracy
3) Inherently more democratic by design
4) Do NOT believe in the "a loaf of bread cost....." You know the drill.
5) Superior grievance handling
6) VERY sharp legal acumen...very informed
7) Apolitical...not party hacks
Just a few, though the whole aura and scope/philosophy is the clicher...and too tough to explain here. You might not agree...but you have your interests...I have mine.
BTW Here's an admittedly anecdotal reason:
How is the IAM card drive going at NWA?
