Latest Iam Leter Of Agreement

[jetmech01890]

its not that us MECHANICS that do not have it in for ramp and all of utility but its likes of lav man that we dislike he runs around CHLT with his napolean like attitude and that @@SS US OFF IF HE KEPT HIS TWO CENTS TO HIMSELF , he would probally be a decent guy but as us mechanics in the northeast hate the IAM and what it stands for .Time for a change yes maybe the grass is any greener but may be they care about more than DUES AND GIVING THINGS UP AND RIGGING A BALLOT COUNT.IF AMFA GETS IN IAM DIES LIKE THE EXTINCT DINOSAURE THAT IT IS

 

[jetmech01890]

oh yeah on more thing lav dumper when was the last time you signed a log book

 

[LavMan]

You have issues and need to seek help, your post is not even worth a response.

 

[LavMan]

I sign a job card everyday for the etops flights.

 

[Todd B]

oh yeah on more thing lav dumper when was the last time you signed a log book

Please avoid name calling.

 

[PITbull]

Dio,

Dio states:ALPA espouses the same philosophy as AMFA - pilots, or in the case of AMFA, mechanics, only please. I didn't see ALPA fare any better than IAM, CWA or AFA during BK. To my thinking, just as investment diversity is a wise strategy, the IAM's diversification is a wise strategy. If the airline sector hits a rough patch, the tiremakers and woodworkers stabilize the union. If the tiremakers have an extended strike, transport dues keep the union going. The real, live example of this is AFA. They are busting a gut to do right by their members, but are going broke. They have no tiremakers or woodworkers to fall back on.

PITbull responds: Your cite above is truly the essence of why diversification in classification is critical for Unions survival when the "unforseen" happens. AFA has been around for over 50 years representing flight attendants.

Union busters have busted us financially and we are struggling for our very survival as a stand-alone single classification/craft unit. Furloughs have killed our union, and if we do not affiliate, we will parish.

 

[jetmech01890]

no lav man my question was WHEN DID YOU SIGN A LOGBOOK NOT A JOB CARD

 

[ClueByFour]

Union busters have busted us financially and we are struggling for our very survival as a stand-alone single classification/craft unit. Furloughs have killed our union, and if we do not affiliate, we will parish.

To be fair, blowing several million bucks trying to get in at DL certainly did not help.

 

[PITbull]

Clue,

Hindsight is always 20/20.Unions must have organizing drives. Again, there is power in numbers. If, let say, AFA had been successful in 2001, with 26,000 f/as at DL, AFA would not be looking to affiliate. AFA's two biggest carriers are U and United. Ironically, coincidentally, or otherwise, both carriers went into BK. As a result mass furloughs occured in both carriers, and quickly.

With U, 9/11 we had approx. 10,400. Today, U sits at a little over 5,400. United lost 7,000 members thus far.


Bob,

And there is much credence in what you present above. The PIT AFA President has not made up her mind on the vote to have AFA affliate with CWA. This is a vote at the Board in Oct. However, once decided by these 67 AFA presidents, the ultimate decision will go to the members....all of AFA 27,000.

 

[High Iron]

Ata, according to amfa they have not reached the 50% plateau yet, go check your sources, cards are dropping off everyday.

And if you think I am throwing stones, all I am doing is the same as you and your amfa buddies, it is ok for them to post false information and I am the bad guy when you are proven wrong?

If that is the way you think then there is not point in having a conversation.

Because people are pissed off and don't realize what is happening in the industry is not the IAM's fault, but they cant get past thinking with their emotions rather then using logic.

The IAM did not go knocking on CCY's door, look around the industry, amfa only represented one major carrier until recently, and that was NWA, the healthiest of all the airlines, but they have lost 4,500 mechanics since amfa took over and amfa has a 38% farmout rate which NWA is farming out 45%, amfa has a no layoff clause in NWA contract that is one member is on layoff they cant farmout work, then why are there 4,500 less mechanics at NWA now?

Why should I support a union that feels mechanics are gods and the "and relateds" are scum? Why did the mechanics get a higher % raise and the cleaners less at NWA? Why did amfa not get a 85 point plan?

So tell me how is amfa any better?

All due apologies to ata36bg, but I'd like to dissect a bit more:

Lav Man ( " ):

"Ata, according to amfa they have not reached the 50% plateau yet, go check your sources, cards are dropping off everyday."

---Check your own sources, and not Mr Roach's shots from the hip...whom you're merely paraphrasing. On one point I'll give you partial credit...partial; cards are dropping off...but new ones are being submitted with a fervor. If you're so confident of AMFA's immenent failure to file for a vote, then you should have nothing to worry about, right?

"And if you think I am throwing stones, all I am doing is the same as you and your amfa buddies, it is ok for them to post false information and I am the bad guy when you are proven wrong?"

---Every single one of your anti-AMFA talking points was thoroughly debunked, and yet you:

1) Fail to answer, much less debate, the exact point directly, by either...

a) ignoring the post as though it did not exist

B) bring up matters unrelated to the original point, only to imply that you've
successfully counter-attacked and won the original argument. This is the
classic "strawman" argument/tactic.

2) Repeatedly attempt to "win" an argument by posting the same plattitudes like a rubber stamp...ie: through sheer repetition. That is: a statement made by you is "true" in your eyes if it is un-rebutted. It's like watching C-span congressional/senate debates where some participants never engage each other directly point-for-point- but rather, just state their piece, as if intimidating the opponent by their sheer steadfastness.

To wit: You have proved no one wrong on a factual basis of the exact issues, and your opponents were not posting false information: You were at the same meetings we were and heard everything we did. To come out of those informational meetings and make statements to the contrary ( some of them answers to YOUR own questions ) can only be interpreted as either:
1) Exceptionally short memeory

2) Deliberate distortion/Monumentally dellusional

If you want the bad guy label, then...............


"If that is the way you think then there is not point in having a conversation."

---Such a non-specific, desperate statement is about as close as we'll ever get to a "touche" from you.

---"Because people are pissed off and don't realize what is happening in the industry is not the IAM's fault, but they cant get past thinking with their emotions rather then using logic."

---You align yourself so devotedly to a group that touts "strength in numbers", and yet dismiss others, in yet increasingly greater numbers, voting with their feet as thinking with their emotions because they disagree with you now. I guess there was a profound mutation of humans over time.

"The IAM did not go knocking on CCY's door, look around the industry, amfa only represented one major carrier until recently"

---And AMFA did not go knocking on anybody's door either. It took a grassroots effort to generate enough support to gain the critical mass to formally organize. Make no mistake: It was not ever a "raid",....Mutiny would be a better word.

"and that was NWA, the healthiest of all the airlines"

---Yeah...and?

"but they have lost 4,500 mechanics since amfa took over"

---This is the most egregious "factual error" ( AHEM ) that you continue to spew, and continue to deny statements to the contrary. Right now, NWA employs ( just slightly ) over 6000 mechanics...not 4500. I'll tell you what: Given your supposed acumen, and your pull with the IAM, surely an IAM official will attend the upcoming AMFA informational meeting in PHL, and at at your behest get the skinny. Word on the floor is that a certain officer of the IAM has left E-mails unanswered asking same.."

"and amfa has a 38% farmout rate which NWA is farming out 45%, amfa has a no layoff clause in NWA contract that is one member is on layoff they cant farmout work, then why are there 4,500 less mechanics at NWA now?"

---Again, as I've mused in an earlier post, be prepared to fall on the same sword you wield so flagrantly: AMFA's farmout limit is 38% of TOTAL LABOR COST. You are quite smitten with the DOT table you try to beat everybody over the head with that shows AMFA farming out 44% by their figures...yet you accept, without demur, the 50% farmout figure for USAirways...all the stating that our present farm-out situation is better than NWA's. Just which figures do you want. It's all or nothing...no "one from column A" stuff.

"Why should I support a union that feels mechanics are gods and the "and relateds" are scum? Why did the mechanics get a higher % raise and the cleaners less at NWA? Why did amfa not get a 85 point plan?".....So tell me how is amfa any better?"

---Can't help with inferiority complexes, but I imagine it's based on the resposibilty and relative differences in inherent bargaining power.

Why better? like ata36bg says, this BB wouldn't do justice, but here's the basics:

1) More focused...less slices of pie to divvy out

2) Small "national"/less beaurocracy

3) Inherently more democratic by design

4) Do NOT believe in the "a loaf of bread cost....." You know the drill.

5) Superior grievance handling

6) VERY sharp legal acumen...very informed

7) Apolitical...not party hacks

Just a few, though the whole aura and scope/philosophy is the clicher...and too tough to explain here. You might not agree...but you have your interests...I have mine.

BTW Here's an admittedly anecdotal reason:
How is the IAM card drive going at NWA?

 

[High Iron]

E-trons, the membership at UAL ratified that contract by over 70% so blame the members for approving it.

And you are comparing apples to oranges, stick to the issue here at US Airways, the union has not given away the right of aircraft overhaul, we did lose utility at numerous stations, but once again, the mechanics control the vote by sheer numbers. Like I said I dont care what happens or happened at UAL, this is US Airways and we need to protect the work we have here.


So tell me what heavy maintenance did the IAM negotiate away here?

LavMan: "And you are comparing apples to oranges, stick to the issue here at US Airways, the union has not given away the right of aircraft overhaul, we did lose utility at numerous stations, but once again, the mechanics control the vote by sheer numbers. Like I said I dont care what happens or happened at UAL, this is US Airways and we need to protect the work we have here."

--- HAH!!! I'll bet you'd rather not compare US to UAL right now! You sure don't mind comparing US to NWA though, do you.

Apples and oranges indeed!

 

[ata36bg]

LavMan,

Thanks for your answer. I appreciate you taking the time to do it.


High Iron-You missed your calling. No apologies necessary.

 

[TDR1502C]

An impressive post, as usual, High Iron. I bet you can actually T/S too, rather than swap parts. You'll always have a future.

Maybe you can be US Airway's Neil.

 

[diogenes]

IAM, for better or worse, will be the union of record during the farmout war. We all understand the significance of farmout - the loss of thousand of jobs. How on earth does it further anyone's interests to be distracted? Distraction is a KILLER in battle.

I believe the wisest course is to put your differences aside for now, unite, and fight like hell to save your jobs. I'll be right there with you. When farmout is resolved, resume the AMFA/IAM debate.

Here's a fun question. Is AMFA rooting for IAM to lose the farmout war to further their own interests? If so, I can think of nothing more despicable, as this is prime facie evidence they are willing to gamble with YOUR jobs. Isn't this the gripe with the IAM - they don't show the proper respect for the mechanic's job?

AFA supports IAM over the farmout issue. As does ALPA and CWA. Does AMFA, and will they make this support public?

 

[LavMan]

Why would they? They want our dues money!

And remember the past president of amfa local 33 said US and UAL should go out of business.

Former local 33 President reveled the AMFA strategy when he said;

"There's no question that consolidation is going to happen," MacFarlane said. As a union leader, he added, it's difficult to acknowledge that it would be healthy for other airlines if United Airlines and US Airways go out of business. "But the fact is that's the fix that the industry needs right now, because there are way too many seats flying around.