Kangaroo Court

[AAmech]

MR. LITTLE WE KNOW WHAT'S GOING ON. YOU ARE ABOUT TO LOOSE MECHANICS AND RELATED AT AA.

I wouldn't bet a lot of money on it Superside, that card drive is not exactly on fire!!
But anyway Local 562 can elect all the amfa supporters it wants as long as they don't actively campaing for them while they hold a TWU office. TWU is the union for Mechanics and even though I'm not in their local they do vote in Presidents Councils on issues that affect me! Are they voting issues that benifit mechanics? Or are they voting issues to benifit another union? They should NOT be holding office in the TWU!

 

[Hopeful]

and exactly how has the TWU benefitted its mechanics? Do you mean by only allowing 1300 Layoffs?
Because there's more coming!

 

[_AMT_MCI]

....am I understanding this correctly? A question was asked how to get an AMFA official elected as a TWU officer...ref: So how then does the Local 562 Membership obtain replacement Officers? Are you goin to say that only those that do not support AMFA can run for election?

....INTEGRITY...if you have it you would not run for office as your beliefs in AMFA would void your drive to run for a union office you do not desire. I am confident you are not at 100% AMFA at any location...I guess to void those rights of the brothers that want TWU is an acceptable evil by the AMFA .

....If in office and your ideals change...so should your position, unless being two faced and unloyal to your oath means so little , reflecting a definate character flaw.

....I'm sure Delle is looking for actors, not members...

 

[Wretched Wrench]

Some the posts here are starting to look like banner ads. This is the equivalent of shouting. If your communication is of any value, regular text will convey the message quite adequately.

While I might even agree with some of the loud posts, there is a negative association caused by the "shouting" that actually makes the message less well-received.

 

[Checking it Out]

Checking it out.

I simply stated what I was told at a shop steward meeting in TUL. 514 put there support behind Sonny. I never said I was at the convention. You have to follow blindly inorder to go to that party. As far as morals go, I would never sell out the members for a job or money.

Why do all these TWU supporters hide behind a alias. Hell you talk the company line, you shouldn't need to hide.

Have a nice day.

Jim,

Why does delle hide behind an Alias? I believe I read a news article about this issue! Something to do with his first name?

 

[Jim Martin]

checking it out.

Do always answer a ? with a ?

 

[RV4]

checking it out.

Do always answer a ? with a ?

NO, they never answer anything, they just LIE, LIE, LIE, ATTACK, and SPREAD FEAR.

No wonder we are considered the weakest in the industry, the TWU breeds cowardly, liars, that are also fear mongers.

 

[jake]

Dave (Mo),
Speaking of “kangaroo courtâ€￾, why did your AMFA boys team up with Local 100 at the protest in New York? Aren’t these the same guys that you are talking bad about and trying to separate from? Or do you think all the comments you’ve made about the “shrine of the busâ€￾ and the like shed a positive light on our brothers from Local 100? Could it possibly be because the President of Local 100 is a dissident also and is trying to secure Sonny Hall’s position? You’d think out of 138,000 members at Local 100, you could come up with more than 25 people (most of which were paid staff) to support the cause. Why would Mr. Toussaint ( Pres., Local 100) be interested in Sonny’s job? Could it be because he has, in fact been terminated from his job? Or could it be that, like you Dave it doesn’t matter to him how he harms the TWU membership as long as he gets his “new directionâ€￾? By the way Dave…do you refuse to say the pledge of elegance and salute the flag like Mr. Toussaint? Isn’t it interesting that we have two people being tried for not fulfilling the oath that they swore to uphold when they took office being defended by a guy who won’t salute the AMERICAN flag or recite the Pledge of Allegiance? Makes you think about what kind of people are in the “brain trustâ€￾ of your cause, doesn’t it?

 

[RV4]

Dave (Mo),
Speaking of “kangaroo courtâ€, why did your AMFA boys team up with Local 100 at the protest in New York? Aren’t these the same guys that you are talking bad about and trying to separate from? Or do you think all the comments you’ve made about the “shrine of the bus†and the like shed a positive light on our brothers from Local 100? Could it possibly be because the President of Local 100 is a dissident also and is trying to secure Sonny Hall’s position? You’d think out of 138,000 members at Local 100, you could come up with more than 25 people (most of which were paid staff) to support the cause. Why would Mr. Toussaint ( Pres., Local 100) be interested in Sonny’s job? Could it be because he has, in fact been terminated from his job? Or could it be that, like you Dave it doesn’t matter to him how he harms the TWU membership as long as he gets his “new directionâ€? By the way Dave…do you refuse to say the pledge of elegance and salute the flag like Mr. Toussaint? Isn’t it interesting that we have two people being tried for not fulfilling the oath that they swore to uphold when they took office being defended by a guy who won’t salute the AMERICAN flag or recite the Pledge of Allegiance? Makes you think about what kind of people are in the “brain trust†of your cause, doesn’t it?

Nice spin Jake,

We didn't recruit anybody, they show up on their own free will. I know you believe everyone is led around with a nose ring and told how to think like you do. But all working men are not so supressed. There is strong evidence to suggest that Tulsa, Oklahoma is the only work group still attached to the nose ring, everyone else is now thinking for themselves.

Those guys at Local 100 want us to leave so they can continue to control their union, the ATD and it's massive Fleet Service ranks is threatening their authority also, and they would like to continue to be the majority rule of their union just like the Mechanics of the industry are seeking. If the Mechanics at AA leave, they once again become and maintain the majority division.

I think those guys in Local 100 want the TWU to be the "shrine of the bus". Why would they be offended by that claim? After all, they are bus transit affiliated, right? They might have a problem if the TWU became the "shrine of the 777", but we all know that isn't going to happen.

Don't you find it interesting that so many unionist find the TWU appalling?

Or are those Bus Headlights on high beam and in your eyes also?

BTW, isn't it a branch of your Democratic Party that is trying to remove "Under God" from the pledge? The day that happens, I wont pledge either.

 

[jake]

Dave (Mo),
Let me restate, I think it speaks volumes about AMFA’s integrity if they are supporting individuals that have taken an oath of loyalty to obtain a leadership position and have no intention of upholding that oath. It’s simply hypocrisy in its purest form. If you AMFA boys want to pursue a new union, have at it…just don’t be hypocrites in the process. It also says a lot about the kind of “leadersâ€￾ you have supporting your efforts when Mr. Toussaint WILL NOT SALUTE OUR FLAG and WILL NOT PLEDGE HIS ALLIEGENCE to the UNITED STATES of AMERICA, the very country that gives him (and you) the freedom to be who you are. Furthermore, the mechanics and related of the TWU must choose to participate in order to make a difference in their Union. Changing unions simply will not change the participation level of the membership. That fact can be realized by looking at the unimpressive vote totals at NWA, United and SWA. By the way, if I come rally with you, will you leave our organization?

 

[RV4]

Dave (Mo),
Let me restate, I think it speaks volumes about AMFA’s integrity if they are supporting individuals that have taken an oath of loyalty to obtain a leadership position and have no intention of upholding that oath. It’s simply hypocrisy in its purest form. If you AMFA boys want to pursue a new union, have at it…just don’t be hypocrites in the process. It also says a lot about the kind of “leaders†you have supporting your efforts when Mr. Toussaint WILL NOT SALUTE OUR FLAG and WILL NOT PLEDGE HIS ALLIEGENCE to the UNITED STATES of AMERICA, the very country that gives him (and you) the freedom to be who you are. Furthermore, the mechanics and related of the TWU must choose to participate in order to make a difference in their Union. Changing unions simply will not change the participation level of the membership. That fact can be realized by looking at the unimpressive vote totals at NWA, United and SWA. By the way, if I come rally with you, will you leave our organization?

Ok Let me restate my position,

I believe it was Jim Little and the TWU who decided seperate locals and self determination was the answer for the line mechanic during the last AMFA drive.

If the TWU decides to charter a local and nearly 100% of that local supports AMFA, how does one obtain anything other than a TWU Officer who supports AMFA and yet, is elected by the membership to lead the "seperate local"?

Seems to me, the TWU got exactly what they created!

No spin, just plain facts.

Local 562 is overwhemingly an AMFA supporting Local as well as most other Locals besides Tulsa Local 514. If you remove Bob and Chuck, then hold another election, I will bet money that the TWU will get another AMFA supporting President and Treasurer? Any doubts?

My personal opinion...

Taking an oath of allegiance to the TWU while supporting AMFA does have some crediblity issues that arise. But if there is such strong support for AMFA at Local 562, I think they need elected representatives, and it seems an AMFA supporter is the best leader. I don't know how to get around the oath and elect the best leaders. Seems to me we should all sign cards, go AMFA and get better leadership across the board, including Tulsa Oklahoma!

Bottom line is the TWU chartered Local 562 knowing full well they were very supportive of AMFA, expecting anything less than exactly what has occurred is not only stupid, but foolish. The fact remains that 8 Airlines are now represented by AMFA, 80-90% of the AA Line Mechanics are AMFA supporters, 70-80% of AFW at AA supports AMFA, did it ever occur to you that the Tulsa Mechanic that is still blinded by the LIES generated by Local 514 might actually be the problem?

twuer,

Despite our difference of opinions regarding TWU vs AMFA, you appear to be a good union man, and care deeply about the welfare of yourself, your family, and your co-workers. There is NO dispute that our union membership is deeply divided. The only way to reconcile is to have a Union Representation election. Given most TWU Officers view that an election would "destroy the TWU", they appear to know that AMFA will win the election, thus they are now attempting to prevent that election, which is nothing more than anti-American, and anti-Union in itself. Have you read the AMFA Constitution? Do you really believe in "strength in numbers"? Because the "NUMBERS" appear to be represented by AMFA. Why can't you just allow the membership to decide their own fate via an election, and if AMFA wins, put your efforts into running for Office under the most Democratic Constitution in Labor History?


You preach Solidarity.

Look up Solidarity in the Dictionary, the word is not a slogan, the word has both a definition and a meaning in the English Language.

sol•i•dar•i•ty

Pronunciation: (sol"i-dar'i-tE),
—n.,
—pl. -ties.
1. union or fellowship arising from common responsibilities and interests, as between members of a group or between classes, peoples, etc.: to promote solidarity among union members.
2. community of feelings, purposes, etc.
3. community of responsibilities and interests.

The National Mediation Board determines Craft or Class based on "mutuality of interest" and has determined that you have NO mutual interest with Fleet Service, Stock Clerks, Bus Drivers, ect.

Thus if SOLIDARITY means "fellowship arising from common responsibilities and interests", you should be able to see that you will have more SOLIDARITY in a UNION OF MECHANICS rather than a catch all, represent anybody who will pay dues union?

Or maybe you would care to explain in detail, how your interest and responsiblities are common to the Bus Driver, the Fleet Service Clerk, the Stock Clerk, the Dispatchers, the Railroad Workers, and ZEBCO Rod and Reel Makers?

 

[amtusa2001]

For Immediate Release August 21, 2003

TWU Local 100 update
on the troubles in the air transport division
and the demand for union democracy in the TWU

Even while proceedings against Local 562 Secretary-Treasurer Robert Owens were in progress – proceedings based on secret charges -- TWU’s International leadership issued a statement finding him guilty of supporting a raid against us. This raises basic questions about how fair our International procedures are.

Having assumed Owens guilty, the International leadership also found Local 100 guilty by association because it stood up for the democratic rights of Owens and of the members who elected him. Apparently, along with other basic principles, our International President has forgotten about “innocent until proven guilty.â€

The International accuses Local 100 of undermining industrial unionism. Local 100 is the biggest and best example of industrial unionism in the transportation industry and the entire TWU. International President Sonny Hall’s supporters have repeatedly attempted to split Local 100 between bus and subway. Last year Hall himself okayed an attempt to separate the private bus lines from the rest of Local 100. Hall supporters, including one International Executive Board member, have repeatedly campaigned for the creation of a “skilled trade†split-off from Local 100. Yet the International leadership now has the nerve to accuse others of undermining industrial unionism.

President Toussaint said, “No one committed to industrial unionism and the health of the TWU can be happy about a raid by a non-AFL-CIO “Fraternal Associationâ€. AMFA’s business-unionism and avowed principle of ‘power in skill, not power in numbers’ is the opposite of the principle “United, Invincible†on which Mike Quill founded Local 100 and the TWU.â€

A witch-hunt that does not address the real problems can only drive more members into the arms of the snake-oil pitchmen of AMFA. Democratic principles are the starting point for a healthy union that can hold its own when times are bad and flourish and grow in more favorable times. This is what we need in the TWU and we need it soon, before the crisis deepens further.

We hope that Local 100’s principled stand for union democracy will help persuade our brothers and sisters in air transport that it is better to fight for a strong, democratic TWU than to split in frustration and confusion.

Here is how local 100 answered the International's August 20 pr job

 

[Checking it Out]

Just the Facts

Question: Do NWA AMFA line Technicians have better layoff protection then Shop Technicians at the Maintenance Bases? Answer: Yes.

The Current AMFA Contract, Article 2, Scope of Agreement Article 2(K), states:
All regularly scheduled Northwest Airlines, Inc, line maintenance (including line checks) at domestic stations will be performed by AMFA represented technician and higher employees under this agreement. This shall include regularly scheduled line maintenance (including line checks) at new locations Simply stated, line maintenance positions are protected from being eliminated.

However, if you work in base maintenance (i.e.: MSP, ATL, etc.), your protection is left open for interpretation.

Article 2(F)3, allows the Company to subcontract up to 38% of the Airframe, Engine and Components, 18% of Plant Maintenance, 28% of Facilities Maintenance and 7% of the Ground Operations – Cleaners work. In addition, the Company may exceed these limits if they invoke the “Exceptions to (the) General Ruleâ€. Fact is Maintenance Bases are closing and AMFA is powerless to stop NWA
An arbitrator will ultimately decide whether the “Exceptions†are legitimate.

Based on the current language, it’s obvious that the Company must staff Technician positions (including new locations) to perform line maintenance work. There is no contractual right for the Company to subcontract line maintenance work. On the other hand, it’s obvious that the company is allowed to subcontract a substantial amount of work, resulting in the laying off of base maintenance Technicians. Are the base maintenance layoffs a violation of the “Job Security Covenant� We will only know that answer, if and when the AMFA leadership brings the issue before an arbitrator. In the mean time, Base Maintenance Technicians are continually being laid off at NWA.

The facts are: Line Technicians comprised the majority of the AMFA negotiating team, they protected themselves and their line maintenance work. When it came time to protect the majority of AMFA/NWA membership that are assigned to Base Maintenance Operations, the AMFA negotiators, FAILED these members and negotiated away their base maintenance work.

Stay Informed! Get the Facts!

Concerned Technicians

 

[Steve Connell]

jake...thank you......ref:Let me restate, I think it speaks volumes about AMFA’s integrity if they are supporting individuals that have taken an oath of loyalty to obtain a leadership position and have no intention of upholding that oath.

my feelings exactly....at least man keep integrity an honest word....SC

 

[jake]

Dave(Mo),
It was not the TWU or Jim Little’s recommendation that we should split into separate locals. Jim Little wasn’t even in office at that time, (thus another AMFA LIE) it was the concept of the line stations in order to gain, what they considered to be, more of a voice at the presidents counsel thus more control. Since it did not violate the constitution and in an effort to alleviate concerns raised by the lines, the International granted the charters that the locals petitioned for. Although the separation wasn’t good enough for locals like 562, it was just the beginning stages of a plan to destroy the TWU. It’s possible that the International got exactly what they expected, however that didn’t make the separation illegal so they had no grounds to not allow it. That is, until the 562 guys weren’t smart enough not to violate the constitution. I agree, you guys have something in common with Local 100. If M&R changes unions, Local 100 would virtually ensure Roger T’s election and you guys would get your way too, that’s why Roger supports your efforts. Both have different agendas but the same goal. It’s just ironic that you guys have to rely on “bus drivers” isn’t it? And don’t pretend that AMFA’s constitution doesn’t basically say the same thing when it comes to dual unionism. If the newly elected officers make the same mistakes, the International should do the very same thing!
You’re right, obviously there is a character issue with these guys and that is my point. It doesn’t matter to you AMFA boys who is involved in your support, because they still got you a card signed, right? And it’s not bad enough that these guys lied when they took the oath or at very least, failed to abide by the oath, now you have guys coming to support you that wont say the “pledge” and won’t salute the flag. By the way, Roger T. isn’t the only one, Mark Rasco of L.A. refused to do the same thing (I know I’m not telling you anything you don’t already know, that’s why you’re part of the problem). Now Dave, I don’t know if you served in this country’s military or not, but thousands have and died for the right to live in this great country and these boys think that their issues are more important than all the lives sacrificed. Doesn’t that disturb you? Additionally, your claim about the 80 to 90 % signed at the line stations is ambitious (but I’d like to see some proof if you have it) and as far as AFW goes, there are a little less than 2000 people there and Dan Cunningham received 217 votes in the last election. If that constitutes 70 to 80%, my math is foggy. Incidentally, when “company man Dan” gets removed, is he going to seek another management position? If he does, won’t this be his 3rd or 4th try? Maybe they will actually hire him this time!