JetBlue,TV & AA

[j7915]

[blockquote]----------------On 1/4/2003 10:15:55 PM Buck wrote: [blockquote]
----------------
On 1/4/2003 8:07:39 PM j7915 wrote:

[blockquote]----------------On 1/4/2003 4:55:00 PM Boomer wrote: http://www.swaforamfa.com/swamechanicsforamfa/id5.html

10 Year AMT(A&P) Line Mechanic
UAL/IAM $34.91
SWA/Teamsters $34.98
AA/TWU $33.80

If you go to the link above, you will see a table that represents the pay scales for all the US Major carriers.

Please notice that SWA Mechanics in fact make MORE per hour than UAL Mechanics & AA Mechanics.
----------------[/blockquote]

So how much are the overhaul mechanics at SWA being paid?

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[/blockquote]
J7915: I see that you advocating the separation of the Base Maintenance and Line Maintenance at AA again. Go ahead and keep reminding the company that some or all of the heavy maintenance is done by non-union workers.----------------[/blockquote]

At the risk of being declared off topic, Buck when have I ever advocated separating TULE, AFW and now MCI from the rest of AMR?
Who is giving the beancounters in Dallas ideas? I think they are smarter than I am and have considered that long ago. Apparently the idea is to keep control of overhaul, but at prices that are competitve to MROs.

If you don't have an answer to my question why don't you just post a URL or nothing?

 

[Diesel8]

Hopeful,

Why don't you tell us, how much JBLU employees are paid and of their benefits. You seem to be intimately familiar with the subject. Once you do that, we can compare
the pay of JBLU to some other airlines.

"So be happy at JetBlue". Thanks, I am.

Did the "Fat Cats" paid profit sharing last year and if so, how much?

And lastly, before I decide to dismiss you as just another ranter, did you have a horrible keyboard accident or did you mean to spell David Neeleman wrong. See the thing is, I actually respect the gentleman!

 

[Buck]

[blockquote]
----------------
At the risk of being declared off topic, Buck when have I ever advocated separating TULE, AFW and now MCI from the rest of AMR?
Who is giving the beancounters in Dallas ideas? I think they are smarter than I am and have considered that long ago. Apparently the idea is to keep control of overhaul, but at prices that are competitve to MROs.

If you don't have an answer to my question why don't you just post a URL or nothing?


----------------
[/blockquote]
Every time you turn you attempt to associate overhaul wages at AA and LUV. Answer your question? How can I answer the question if I do not know the answer. I have asked many times what the farm out rate is at AA and where to go to find this documentation. You never have provided that information. You still have not answered my other question:


Posted: 12/15/2002 208 PM / IP: Recorded

12/15/2002 3:18:24 PM

Buck
Member

Total Posts: 111
Last Post: 1/4/2003
Member Since: 8/20/2002
Member #: 85

You know you go to a lot of trouble to hide your identity from the users on theses message boards. I really do not know what you are afraid of. Yes I am on Dock 4D in TUL I am currently working in Avionics. And you are? and where do you work?

 

[KCFlyer]

[P]
[BLOCKQUOTE][BR]----------------[BR]On 1/4/2003 8:42:09 PM Hopeful wrote:
[P]So work for a company, get paid lower than others, be happy! Golly Gee, why didnt I think of that? Don't you think it's possible that at one time when AA, UAL, Delta were in their infancies, and throught their long histories, they had happy employees? Morale at AA and UAL and USAir are where they are because of greedy and inept management. It is not always the fault of labor. So be happy at JetBlue, work for less than other companies while Needle-man and his fat cat investors make millions. [BR][BR]Remember? LET THEM EAT CAKE![/P]----------------[/BLOCKQUOTE]
[P][/P]Hopeful - which is better[BR][BR]1. Going to work every day for a company that is asking you for concessions over and over again, with a managment team that you trust about as far as you can throw them [BR][BR]or[BR][BR]2. Going to work every day to make a "liveable wage" for a company where you feel that you and management are working together for a common goal.[BR][BR]Seems like some professional jealousy here. Yes, managment at some of the other airlines has indeed been greedy and inept. So has some of the union leadership at the other airlines. Two wrongs don't make a right. And suppose that JetBlue paid their A320 Captains $500 an hour and their mechanics $100 an hour - how will that help the situation that you are in at U or UAL? That certainly wouldn't be "dragging the industry down", but you'd still be in the same shape you are today. Oh, I suppose that without the likes of JetBlue, Southwest, or Airtran, you could say that the public would then have to pay more to fly, thus keeping the the level of pay up where it's at and keeping the big boys out of chapter 11. On the other hand, there would be fewer folks flying because they wouldn't pay the fare that would be charged without the "low cost competition". Thus, you might be out of a job since the demand wouldn't be there to justify your position...however your bretheren who still had jobs would certainly be paid well. [BR][BR]You seem to be advocating that the employees of Jetblue adopt an adversarial relationship with managment. That they "stop drinking the kool aid". But you know something, every airline actually does need some managment...just like every airline does need some pilots and mechanics. It sure makes life a lot more fun when you trust managment and enjoy your job than it does when you go to work, hating your job, hating your company, hating your managment. If you have to live together, why not try to make the most of it? [BR][BR]I don't know what Jetblue employees are paid, but if Neeleman learned anything from Southwest, it's to keep your employees long term financial well being in mind. So I would imagine that in lieu of an "industry leading" paycheck, they are given incentives (profit sharing, stock options, stock purchase, ec.) for them to operate a profitable company. You know, it strikes me as a little odd that your unions don't look out for your long term financial health since one of the biggest drawbacks to union membership is the "seniority system". Since it's virtually impossible for you to leave your company and start somewhere else without taking a severe cut in pay, it seems that long term deals would be of a great value to the union member. But it's apparently not that important.

 

[Hopeful]

Now for the good stuff, Diesel:
I understand that at JFK, the Port Authority has extended JetBlue some "benefits" that existing JFK carriers have never received. How long is JetBlue going to be considered an "upstart carrier?" The Port Authority of NY & NJ has for quite sometime forgone landing fees for JetBlue because "they're an upstart carrier." Do you rememeber the very first day when JetBlue began operations? Legislators from Buffalo and Queens, NY actually had a debate in Congress to be ready to act against the evil American Airlines to "keep an eye them and their predatory ways" in case they undercut JetBlue? What ever happened to a free market society? Do you call that fair, Diesel? The Port Authority has offered JetBlue just about anything they want, but other carriers can't put a floor tile down without the customary approval and 15% "surcharge."

Next, as for the comment insinuating my professional jealousy with JetBlue, not true! You missed my point completely. You claim that money isn't everything and should not be the end all. That's true! You say that JetBlue employees are happy, that seems to be true. But you never answered my question: "HOW MUCH (OR LITTLE) ARE YOU WILLING TO WORK FOR JUST BECAUSE YOU WORK IN THE GARDEN OF EDEN?" Happiness does not pay the bills, my boy! You must be one of the those starry eyed kids who think they can actually live on love.

Now, getting to Needle-man, (that's the way I refer to him, no misspelling here). Didn't he sell out years ago to Southwest? Maybe when all the shiny new planes start coming up for their multimillion dollar overhauls, he may be itchy to sell once again to Southwest, and then start another low-cost carrier where he can pay employees entry level wages once again.
Now there is no arguing that JetBlue is profitable, So why doesn't JetBlue pay big time wages since the employees there do the SAME job other carrier employees are doing?

We've seen the wages of mechanics from various carriers posted here, how about posting the wages of the JetBlue mechanics? Let's see and maybe you can shut me up. Let's see the pilot wages of JetBlue pilots posted here.

How about happy employees? Remember a company called PEOPLE EXPRESS? OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOH, everyone wanted to fly People. The people who used to ride the bus now were able to fly. Great success story! But where are they now?

And to you KCFlyer: I suspect that you too are willing to work for less and don't mind the execs making excessive wages and benefits.

If you have read my posts earlier, I do blame greedy management for most of the problems. The unions have to take their share of the blame for antiquated work rules. But to assume that because an airline pays its mechanics and pilots too much or too little is the cause of airline losses is ludicrous. I think that what the majors pay their pilots is just and fair, I do, however, feel that mechanics wages need to be higher simply for the responsiblity. After all, the executives at the airlines driving their Mercedes and BMWs gladly pay the auto dealership am arm and a leg to have a certified technician work on their cars. But when it comes to paying the people who maintain hundreds of millions of dollars in aircraft substandard wages, well.............. what do you think?

 

[KCFlyer]

As I said - there's more to a job than money. Yes, I could make more than what I do. The tradeoff - I'd miss out on my daughters growing up. I could make more money, but I can't buy what I'd have to give up in return. I guess you haven't read where I'm a government employee. Nope, we don't make as much as we could, although it's very competitive, but you won't find any of our "management" raking it in with multimillion dollar paychecks. [BR][BR]Sorry, you won't find someone here who thinks that executives are underpaid. Management salaries have gotten out of hand in all industries, and raises and bonuses paid as their companies lose money and they lay off staff are unconscionable. But....I'd be willing to bet that salary wise, the JetBlue execs make a lot less than the AA, UAL or U execs. Southwest execs make a lot less than their brothers at other airlines. When you look at who's getting the most "bang for the management buck", those two airlines have to be leading the pack. [BR][BR]But what's wrong with making a wage that puts a roof over your head, food on your table, and a car in your driveway and actually liking...no...respecting management. It seems that you feel that Jetblue (and for that matter SWA employees) are being played for fools because the believe their management. They don't have a feeling that they are being "used and abused" by management, so why does it bother you? Some folks have actually had the audacity to say that their pilots and mechanics are less qualified because of their paychecks. Is it because their costs are lower that has caused your company all it's grief? And you're offended because they actually like their jobs? Trust me, it's more than just JetBlue that's brought the industry to it's knees...hell, they've only got 30 planes and 30 planes shouldn't be enough to bring down the giants. No, there was something more. While management did have a hand in it, a lot of their poor decisions were based on giving in to labor demands rather than facing a strike. So the industry is where it's at today. You guys can be upset at JetBlue or Southwest or any other low cost carrier all you want. The difference is, they wake up every morning and look forward to going to work. Can you say the same thing? How much would you be willing to pay to be able to do that? [BR][BR]FWIW - a lot of SWA employees who were there when that airline was only 3 years old have retired millionaires. Do you know any mechanics, gate agents, FA's or rampers at your airline who have done that? Back then, SWA wasn't leading the industry in pay. If that's being "used and abused" by management, then they can abuse me some if they like.

 

[mga707]

[blockquote]
----------------
On 1/5/2003 7:23:16 AM Hopeful wrote:

How about happy employees? Remember a company called PEOPLE EXPRESS? OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOH, everyone wanted to fly People. The people who used to ride the bus now were able to fly. Great success story! But where are they now?
[/blockquote]

Working for Continental. Don't think that CO's post-9/11 layoffs have gone all the way back to 1987. Yet.

 

[Hopeful]

KCFlyer: I take it that you are a non-union government employee

 

[Hopeful]

You have not answered many of the situations I posed. Noone is upset at JetBlue or its employees. I did not say that they are being played as fools by management. Would you work for minimum wage and be happy? I'm not saying JetBluers are paid minimum wage, but you're making it sound that Jetbluers would be ecstatic just working for JetBlue even at minimum wage. You mention that when SWA startyed up, some of the original employees are now retired millionaires. Do you still think that's going to happen nowadays? They sold that BS at People Express. You have not responded to the fact the government bent over backwards for JetBlue because they were an upstart. The PA of NY&NJ still extends "bennies" for JetBlue. American employees far more people in the NY/NJ are than JetBlue does and has never received any "complimentary favors" from the port authority. Would you be happy if American Airlines ceased to exist and have 100,000 people on the street? Not just employees affected, but familes and vendors. Now you're speaking numbers twice that amount affected. You are a KCFLYER, would you want AA to close down STL and MCI?
If American chooses to undercut or match JetBlues fares in competeing routes, it's called ANTI-TRUST and PREDATORY! But when JETBLUE charges low fares, it's called "competition."

My point is that since JetBlue is so successful and they are turning the airline undustry on its ears, they should no longer be given government protection and Local Authority favortism

 

[Hopeful]

MGA707:
I know they are Continental employees now, but the name is gone. And when they had to purchase stock to be employeed by People,s I wonder where are all the millionaires now.

 

[KCFlyer]

[P]
[BLOCKQUOTE][BR]----------------[BR]On 1/5/2003 12:25:12 PM Hopeful wrote:
[P]KCFlyer: I take it that you are a non-union government employee[/P]----------------[/BLOCKQUOTE]
[P][/P]You are correct. I belonged to a union only once in my life...1980-81 I was a member of the Teamsters. [BR][BR]That doesn't mean I am anti-union (ain't that right NHBB??). I do see union membership as having a drawback for almost every benefit. The biggest being the seniority system. Look at US - how many people would have gotten out long before now, but couldn't without starting over from the bottom? Looks like they're going to be starting over anyways, whether the company liquidates or not.

 

[KCFlyer]

[BR][BR]
[BLOCKQUOTE][BR]----------------[BR]On 1/5/2003 12:08:50 PM Hopeful wrote: [BR][BR][STRONG]You have not answered many of the situations I posed. Noone is upset at JetBlue or its employees. I did not say that they are being played as fools by management. Would you work for minimum wage and be happy? I'm not saying JetBluers are paid minimum wage, but you're making it sound that Jetbluers would be ecstatic just working for JetBlue even at minimum wage.[/STRONG] [BR][BR]I don't believe I implied that either. I just said that sometimes money is not the prime motivator behind job satisfaction. Certainly it plays a part, but in many cases, it isn't #1.[BR][BR][STRONG]You mention that when SWA startyed up, some of the original employees are now retired millionaires. Do you still think that's going to happen nowadays? They sold that BS at People Express.[/STRONG] [BR][BR]The jury is still out whether JetBlue will be another Southwest or another PE. I think that JBLU's stock price is still priced with the expectation of rapid growth which is closer to PE than it was Southwest. That's not to say that JetBlue is destined to be another PE, just that the stock price is pointing towards more rapid growth than is prudent. It depends on how managment plans to expand. Right now, I'd give JetBlue managment the benefit of the doubt and believe that they will not pull some crazy stunt like merging with Frontier to attain overnight growth. Can someone still become a millionaire at SWA? I don't really know. I do know that when the employees have an incentive of sharing in the profits, they become the eyes and ears for management to help cut costs and stop waste in ways that management might not recognize. That pays them more. You never can tell what the stock market is going to do, but I'd be willing to say that it isn't unlikely that a 25 year old at SWA today could very well have a million (or several) in the bank at retirement. [BR][BR][STRONG]You have not responded to the fact the government bent over backwards for JetBlue because they were an upstart. The PA of NY&NJ still extends "bennies" for JetBlue. American employees far more people in the NY/NJ are than JetBlue does and has never received any "complimentary favors" from the port authority. [BR][/STRONG][BR]The city of Wichita has bent over backwards trying to lure low cost airlines to their city because they were sick and tired of paying $500 to go to Dallas. It may be deregulation catching up to the NYC area - for the past 25 years, NYC has been one of the markets where the big boys tried to "recover their losses" that were incured on the routes where they had to compete with low cost carriers. Then they have a chance to get an airline that will base themselves in NYC, offer low fares and service that they could only dream of on their "only" previous low fare carrier, Tower Air. [BR][BR][STRONG]Would you be happy if American Airlines ceased to exist and have 100,000 people on the street? Not just employees affected, but familes and vendors. Now you're speaking numbers twice that amount affected. You are a KCFLYER, would you want AA to close down STL and MCI? [BR][BR][/STRONG]No, I wouldn't be happy if AA ceased operations. Trust me, the pain from the layoffs from our largest local employer are hurting KC's economy pretty badly. [BR][BR][STRONG]If American chooses to undercut or match JetBlues fares in competeing routes, it's called ANTI-TRUST and PREDATORY! But when JETBLUE charges low fares, it's called "competition."[BR][/STRONG][BR]I guess the reason AA's taken it in the shorts on this in the past is because they did a little more than compete. Look at their actions against WestPac to COS and Vanguard to ICT and MCI...they increased the number of flights and dropped the fares, then, when the smaller carrier ceded the territory to AA, AA immediately cut flights and raised the fares back up. IMHO, if all they did was match the fare, they wouldn't have been looked at as closely. I base that on SWA's actions against Vanguard on MCI -LAX...they matched Vanguards fares, but they already had far more options between MCI and LAX than Vanguard could have hoped for. When Vanguard pulled out, Southwests fares were not jacked back up to the sky. [BR][BR][STRONG]My point is that since JetBlue is so successful and they are turning the airline undustry on its ears, they should no longer be given government protection and Local Authority favortism[BR][BR][/STRONG]No argument from me here. ----------------[/BLOCKQUOTE][BR][BR]

 

[KCFlyer]

FWIW Hopeful, IMHO, AA could improve revenues and avoid asking for many concessions if they focused on Value Pricing. They are doing it in test markets, but IMHO, it they did it system wide, you might find that concessions would not be as critical as they are today.

 

[KCFlyer]

[P]
[BLOCKQUOTE][BR]----------------[BR]On 1/5/2003 2:36:57 PM Hopeful wrote:
[P]Doesn't UAL employees hold stock in that Compnay?[/P]----------------[/BLOCKQUOTE]
[P][/P]Big difference - First - SWA's profit sharing is NOT in LUV stock. Second, I don't think a lot of UAL employees realized that when the company discussed "shareholder value", they were talking about them. Finally, SWA employees own stock in a company where they trust the management. SWA employees have known from the start that the more they can do to help their company, the more they can make on their stock. It's a lot easier to do that, and to accept some of the "downside" when you believe that management holds their best interest at heart. IMHO, the attiude among too many employees of the "major" airlines has been "screw you, you took your bonuses in the good times and now it's time for us to reap some of those profits.". Contracts are not real good in a cyclical business. Southwest's profit sharing means that the employees take home a pretty nice little bonus each year - in effect, a "raise" over and above their contracted wages.

 

[Hopeful]

Doesn't UAL employees hold stock in that Compnay?