JCBA Negotiations and updates for AA Fleet

[WeAAsles]

LAA F/T and P/T Family LUS P/T Family

Standard Value 80/20 90/10

$335.65 $653.38 $212.98 (Saving of $122.67) $621.86 (Savings of $31.52)

(Savings of $440.40 if they had the “value plan”)

(90/10 is $286.21 more than the “Standard Plan”)


I will concede that the 100% plan is crazy expensive for P/T. But what you are asking the LUS folks to do weez is worse than what we are asking the LAA P/T folks to do. You can talk about how much we “gained” in the last 18 months or so, but you guys also gained that. The LAA P/T folks will gain $$$$$ a month with either plan. Unless every single P/T LAA has the “standard” plan and opts for the LUS 90/10 plan, then they all lose money, but you and I both know that is not the case is it. A vast Majority of P/T LAA folks will have more in their check each check no matter what. Yet you ask ALL of the LUS folks to lose $$$$$ per check. Why is that weez? The numbers do not lie. I would lose $273.45 a check. Times that by 26 checks and I lose $7109 a year. While an LAA P/T person gains $220.20 a check or $5725 a year at most. Stick with your ideology there weez. You are advocating that a F/T LUS person with the 80/20 family plan lose at most $7109 a year and at least $2980 a year while an LAA P/T person stands to gain at most $5725 a year and $1595 at least a year? Why?

Irish where in the World of Waldo are you coming up with """"I'M"""" the one advocating for you to pay more in Medical expenses? I think as a matter of fact I might be one of the few guys on the TWU side (Here on Forums) advocating that NO you should NOT have to come "all the way" up to what we currently pay. Go back and reread where I've stood for a pretty long time on the issue buddy.

But again even if no one comes out and says anything publicly just yet I think the Medical issue has already been decided? Your Medical cost IS going to go up IMO in 2019, how much is the big question? But you have one more year now to set aside some of those massive raises you got (Over $1000 per month) since October 2016 to blunt any shock to the system on costs?

BTW it's NYer who has always maintained and advocated that you're going to come up to the LAA Medical costs, not me. Please don't place me in the same boat as that guy as I find it personally highly offensive.

 

[WeAAsles]

When I started working for AW, if I had publicly stated in the break room that someday we will be making over 4x more than our starting pay, I think a Manager would have required me to submit to a drug test. Trust me... it hasn't been lost upon me having been lucky enough to bet on the right horse this time around, especially as I seriously considered applying to Southwest due to the huge pay disparities.

SWA would not have been a terrible move to make. The Ramp there is compensated very well too.

And I absolutely beyond appreciate what I'm making today. Never said we shouldn't/couldn't strive for more. But we should also appreciate where we are today.

 

[pjirish317]

Irish where in the World of Waldo are you coming up with """"I'M"""" the one advocating for you to pay more in Medical expenses? I think as a matter of fact I might be one of the few guys on the TWU side (Here on Forums) advocating that NO you should NOT have to come "all the way" up to what we currently pay. Go back and reread where I've stood for a pretty long time on the issue buddy.

But again even if no one comes out and says anything publicly just yet I think the Medical issue has already been decided? Your Medical cost IS going to go up IMO in 2019, how much is the big question? But you have one more year now to set aside some of those massive raises you got (Over $1000 per month) since October 2016 to blunt any shock to the system on costs?

BTW it's NYer who has always maintained and advocated that you're going to come up to the LAA Medical costs, not me. Please don't place me in the same boat as that guy as I find it personally highly offensive.

My apologies then weez. But you stated that you would vote "NO" to anything that screws over the LAA P/T as far as insurance goes. Am I correct in saying that? I was pointing out to you, that, in fact, the LAA P/T would in fact GAIN with our plans, except for the 100%, that is just nuts. They would make money, even paying double what a F/T pays, for better coverage and deductables, perscriptions, and co-pays. I just don't get why the LAA folks, including yourself here weez, aren't screaming to hold fast to keep our insurance for everybody. Instead, you guys just say "everybody else on the property has it, we are going to have it also". or "I don't agree that the P/T pay double what a F/T does". What benefit is there to being F/T over P/T then weez? Please tell me. I don't care what everybody else has, there is nothing that says we can't have it. So why not? Why not weez? Why can't we have better health insurance than everybody else? Please enlighten me.

Just curious, why do you think the medical issue has already been decided? Been talking to timmy again? Have you spoken with anybody on the NC? The Company? I do not think anything has been decided at all. Not for one second. When we have a JCBA to look at and vote on is when it will all be decided. Until then it is ALL JUST RUMOR, SPECULATION, ans OPINIONS. How are you so sure it "IS" going up? It goes up every year, but how are you 100% positive that it "IS" going up? I want your crystal ball. I could use it to win the lottery with that predicition.

 

[WeAAsles]

You vote your way I will vote mine. If you think for one second, that "if" our medical cost structure and plans are included into any JCBA that it will not pass, you are being delusional. Just like I completely understand that "if" we lose our medical for $$$$$ per hour and more holidays/vacation, it will pass. Maybe you should talk to some of your P/T friends you know and show them the comparison of our 80/20 and your "value" 80/20 costs. They come out ahead even paying double what a F/T pays. And I am talking the family plans here weez. Heck it is even less that the LAA "standard" plan. So spare me the dramatics on how we have screwed over our P/Ters for good insurance. and they would just about break even with our 90/10 family plan. where it hurts is the 100% plan. So check bobs numbers again, show your P/T friends and see where it lands.

LAA P/T Family: $335.65 for the "standard" plan and $653.38 for the "Value" plan, and they are just 80/20 plans
LUS P/T Family: $212.98 for our 80/20 plan and $621.86 for our better 90/10 plan. Either way it is cheaper for your P/T LAA folks to come to our insurance. I don't see why you have a problem with this, just look at the numbers.

I think and correct me if I'm wrong but you may have more PT Workers on the LUS side than we do by percentage on the LAA side?

You do know if you give the Company a cost savings on something through having Humans be categorized as PT workers they will take FULL advantage of it right. At least IMO they will.

Meaning let's say the Company could have 50% of its workforce be PT. Enticements such as the Company paying less in Medical expenditures will absolutely encourage them to always be at or hit that 50% mark.

 

[pjirish317]

I will say it again, STOCKHOLM SYNDROME!

 

[pjirish317]

We can have 40% P/T systemwide. I don't agree with that number, never have. I would like to see a number around 20-25% done on a station by station basis. But there has to be some benefit to being F//T over P/T. And you do know giving the company any concession in a time of record profits, will most certainly come back to haunt us when the profits aren't so record breaking right?

 

[CremaDiLimone]

I have a better chance at getting that date with Jennifer Anniston than any of us have of getting the Company to agree to dump PT jobs.

obviously, this is the trend. PTers at my station are apprx. 40% of the ramp, while the wage & benefit friendly mainline to regional program has seen eagle/envoy jobs skyrocket. in the summer of 2001, apprx. 1,700 FT ramp, today, not even 700. who wouldn't have a problem with this?

overall, the intl. should do a better job of combating this. of course, envoy union dues count too. it's twu and i get that part. of course, going forward, you'd prefer members paying dues on $35/hr. not $17/hr. what disappoints me the most is the way the local union handles this. FT work/jobs should be incentivized. i feel as though the local should make AM shifts/weekends off a FT priority.

if the company presents this as a fait accompli, then the local should step up...spend more time on the bid, instead of watching tv and eating pizza, and make as many PT shifts PM shifts and non-weekend as possible.

too many 3-4 year PTers in my station worrying about holding AM weekends in desirable work areas. too many. for awhile, there were a few PT union stewards working on the bid...that did not go unnoticed. stuff like this was an impossibility when i was originally hired.

- i'm also looking forward to this 'american voice', or whatever they call it. they will hear from me about the endless CS scams and crews being down men when C/Cs take a CS and want to sit in a chair on their 4-6 hr CS. what allowed these scams to develop was aa's ridiculous CS policy coupled with huge amounts of PT shifts with desirable hours in desirable work areas..corrupted shifts, manipulated by corrupted workers.

Highly doubt inevitably we won't hit those numbers. And even if the $32.00 isn't an absolute hit DOS it's going to be very close. Particularly if anyone wants the TA to pass.

i sympathize with the lus people on the medical, but i don't see much pragmatism. i feel as though you hit the nail on the head with the comment that earning $19/hr at lus, subsidized the 'super' insurance.

if i'm lus, i'm thinking about the amount of goodies i can get in exchange for the inevitable.

i understand the concept of, 'why not get it all?'. if this was 1956 (where eisenhower, a republican president, bragged about his administration helping unions, more union membership, higher wages, etc..from 1952-1956) i can see that.

it's 2017 and unions are economic terrorists. privatized unions are around 7% of the work force and the spin think-tanks from the wealthy and the chamber of commerce, STILL blame unions for their own greed and malfeasance. laws have changed...every law designed to weaken unions, their bargaining power and their ability to collect monies to fight the lobbyist battles.

as far as $32/hr on DOS, unacceptable. especially when aa will get what they on insurance and work rules. the longer this drags on, $32.50-$33.00 on DOS will be the only way to get my vote.

 

[WeAAsles]

My apologies then weez. But you stated that you would vote "NO" to anything that screws over the LAA P/T as far as insurance goes. Am I correct in saying that? I was pointing out to you, that, in fact, the LAA P/T would in fact GAIN with our plans, except for the 100%, that is just nuts. They would make money, even paying double what a F/T pays, for better coverage and deductables, perscriptions, and co-pays. I just don't get why the LAA folks, including yourself here weez, aren't screaming to hold fast to keep our insurance for everybody. Instead, you guys just say "everybody else on the property has it, we are going to have it also". or "I don't agree that the P/T pay double what a F/T does". What benefit is there to being F/T over P/T then weez? Please tell me. I don't care what everybody else has, there is nothing that says we can't have it. So why not? Why not weez? Why can't we have better health insurance than everybody else? Please enlighten me.

Just curious, why do you think the medical issue has already been decided? Been talking to timmy again? Have you spoken with anybody on the NC? The Company? I do not think anything has been decided at all. Not for one second. When we have a JCBA to look at and vote on is when it will all be decided. Until then it is ALL JUST RUMOR, SPECULATION, ans OPINIONS. How are you so sure it "IS" going up? It goes up every year, but how are you 100% positive that it "IS" going up? I want your crystal ball. I could use it to win the lottery with that predicition.

I'd again like to know exactly how many people in the entire Company are we talking about here who have the LUS Family Medical plan and are FT? 122,000 people in AA total minus what?

No Timmy, Irish. And my intuition on it is purely that. No rumors either. I just get a gut feeling that the issue is already settled. My gut is usually pretty good at this stuff.

And you're right the ultimate decider will be us the Membership. Whatever we eventually have to vote on I'm going to be honest about my opinion on it and how I'll vote. Popular decision or not.

 

[WeAAsles]

We can have 40% P/T systemwide. I don't agree with that number, never have. I would like to see a number around 20-25% done on a station by station basis. But there has to be some benefit to being F//T over P/T. And you do know giving the company any concession in a time of record profits, will most certainly come back to haunt us when the profits aren't so record breaking right?

I'm beginning to think you may be looking for a Basketball Players contract over a Ramp Agents one?

Again for me on pay and benefits I think all in I'll be earning somewhere near """"$80,000"""" in pay and benefits when we sign on the dotted line.

I don't see those concessions you're talking about bro? Where?

"Total Economic Package Value"

 

[WeAAsles]

I will say it again, STOCKHOLM SYNDROME!

Not at all. In a perfect World I'm going to make over $30.00 per hour and not pay even one thin dime for Medical Insurance, Medical Care or Prescription Drugs. As a matter of fact in my perfect World my Doctor will make House calls with that little black bag carrying his stethoscope and give me a lollipop before he leaves.

What do you think is the likelihood if I hold out long enough I'm going to see my perfect World? How long do you think I should put my foot down for and demand to see my perfect World?

Have you been reading any of the conversations between myself and swamt about his now over 5 year wait for his perfect World?

 

[pjirish317]

Look weez, you think I'm being idealistic with the medical, and I think you're being obtuse with the medical. We aren't going to agree. The medical for LUS IS ABSOLUTLEY A CONCESSION if it is lost for the LAA insurance. I'm sorry you don't see that as one. But since you gots yours, it's all ok. I thought that once we were a combined workforce we would all get along, now I'm not so sure. With you folks at LAA willing and certainly able to "sell out" for the $$$$$. All I read is that anything that is better than what you folks at LAA have now will get voted in because you have the numbers. I know that is a fact. LAA outnumbers us for sure. And will absolutely carry the vote. But why screw over you newly adopted family to do so? You guys would trip over a dollar to grab a nickel. You are starting to fall into the all I want is the $$$$$ category now weez. It looks like to me that the $$$$ is more important to you than anything else. And I would wager that it looks like to you that the insurance it all I care about. I want a deal that is going to excellent for all. And with every snide response, I lose more and more respect for you. The difference to me is I want ALL of us to have the best of everything, you want whats best for the weez and the LAA folks. You make that plainly clear. My apologies to anybody on the LAA side that feels differently than weez. I know that there are alot of you out there that think we should fight for the best of everything and not cave for the $$$$$. Just like there are alot on the LUS side that think the same as weez.

 

[bob@las-AA]

Check my math please to make sure my formula is correct.

2000 Hours paid at straight time (the holidays are not figured into this amount)
120 Hours of holiday pay (this is 10 holidays paid at time and a half)
2120 Total hours of straight pay and holiday pay combined
X32 Dollars per hour
*67,840 Total pay of regular and holiday pay

2080 Standard hours worked per year
X .50 Shift differential
*1040 Total amount of shift differential per year


*67,840 Total pay of regular and holiday pay
*1040 Total amount of shift differential per year
*68880 Total pay for one year

You must multiply the yearly hours and the holiday hour by the hourly rate with the differential, if you try to separate the differential and then add it in, you arrive at a different answer, the correct way is this,
(2080 x 32.5) + (40 x 32.5) = 68900

adding it in after the fact produces this
(2080 x 32) + (40 x 32) + ( .5 x 2080) = 68880
leaving a 20 dollar difference.

the correct way is this
((2080 x 32.5)+(40 x 32.5)) - ((2080 x 32) + (40 x 32)) =1060 dollars per year not 1040.

you must multiply the differential across the number of total hours of straight including holiday hours
(2080 + 40) x .5 = 1060


The more you Know.

 

[bob@las-AA]

Look weez, you think I'm being idealistic with the medical, and I think you're being obtuse with the medical. We aren't going to agree. The medical for LUS IS ABSOLUTLEY A CONCESSION if it is lost for the LAA insurance. I'm sorry you don't see that as one. But since you gots yours, it's all ok. I thought that once we were a combined workforce we would all get along, now I'm not so sure. With you folks at LAA willing and certainly able to "sell out" for the $$$$$. All I read is that anything that is better than what you folks at LAA have now will get voted in because you have the numbers. I know that is a fact. LAA outnumbers us for sure. And will absolutely carry the vote. But why screw over you newly adopted family to do so? You guys would trip over a dollar to grab a nickel. You are starting to fall into the all I want is the $$$$$ category now weez. It looks like to me that the $$$$ is more important to you than anything else. And I would wager that it looks like to you that the insurance it all I care about. I want a deal that is going to excellent for all. And with every snide response, I lose more and more respect for you. The difference to me is I want ALL of us to have the best of everything, you want whats best for the weez and the LAA folks. You make that plainly clear. My apologies to anybody on the LAA side that feels differently than weez. I know that there are alot of you out there that think we should fight for the best of everything and not cave for the $$$$$. Just like there are alot on the LUS side that think the same as weez.

Sadly, you did come to the conclusion of what will happen, cave for the $$$$$$.

 

[WeAAsles]

Look weez, you think I'm being idealistic with the medical, and I think you're being obtuse with the medical. We aren't going to agree. The medical for LUS IS ABSOLUTLEY A CONCESSION if it is lost for the LAA insurance. I'm sorry you don't see that as one. But since you gots yours, it's all ok. I thought that once we were a combined workforce we would all get along, now I'm not so sure. With you folks at LAA willing and certainly able to "sell out" for the $$$$$. All I read is that anything that is better than what you folks at LAA have now will get voted in because you have the numbers. I know that is a fact. LAA outnumbers us for sure. And will absolutely carry the vote. But why screw over you newly adopted family to do so? You guys would trip over a dollar to grab a nickel. You are starting to fall into the all I want is the $$$$$ category now weez. It looks like to me that the $$$$ is more important to you than anything else. And I would wager that it looks like to you that the insurance it all I care about. I want a deal that is going to excellent for all. And with every snide response, I lose more and more respect for you. The difference to me is I want ALL of us to have the best of everything, you want whats best for the weez and the LAA folks. You make that plainly clear. My apologies to anybody on the LAA side that feels differently than weez. I know that there are alot of you out there that think we should fight for the best of everything and not cave for the $$$$$. Just like there are alot on the LUS side that think the same as weez.

Snide remark or not but I feel like I've been tied to a chair as you keep trying to force words into my mouth and I'm being uncooperative.

No the $$$$$$ is not the most important thing to me. I'm already pretty well loaded actually, having no other people to have to take care of. Actually I bet if the Company didn't offer insurance for people's families (their choices) than those of us who actually "work" for the Company would pay a lot less.

I think the Employees should have 100% subsidized employee healthcare and outsiders should bear the cost for that if you really want to know my deepest, darkest thoughts on the issue.

Honestly do you think I should have to subsidize your family? They don't go to Disneyland with me man.

Oh and to quote you back Irish "But since you already gots yours, it's all ok I guess" Meaning says the guy looking down from the high perch at those not on it quite yet.

And you have every right and even expectation to advocate for your cause but all I ask is to please not be a hypocrite about it. I have a very strong barometer for picking up on those types.

 

[WeAAsles]

You must multiply the yearly hours and the holiday hour by the hourly rate with the differential, if you try to separate the differential and then add it in, you arrive at a different answer, the correct way is this,
(2080 x 32.5) + (40 x 32.5) = 68900

adding it in after the fact produces this
(2080 x 32) + (40 x 32) + ( .5 x 2080) = 68880
leaving a 20 dollar difference.

the correct way is this
((2080 x 32.5)+(40 x 32.5)) - ((2080 x 32) + (40 x 32)) =1060 dollars per year not 1040.


The more you Know.

I'll work a few future Penalty Hours (Shift Contiuance) to reach that 70k goal ok.

BTW didn't Batman have an arch villain who did Math all the time too?