JCBA Negotiations and updates for AA Fleet

[Traymark]

Update

The progress has been good with the ENC involved.

"Expedited executive level negotiations" announced in January.
Six Months later, still no contract.

Pilots and Flight Attendants done in 4 months from beginning to end.

Couple of negotiating dates announced for the next 2 months...

P.Rez,
In what universe is this good?
No dude, this is not good.

P.S. : Shove your IAMPF where the sun don't shine.

 

[P. REZ]

"Expedited executive level negotiations" announced in January.
Six Months later, still no contract.

Pilots and Flight Attendants done in 4 months from beginning to end.

Couple of negotiating dates announced for the next 2 months...

P.Rez,
In what universe is this good?
No dude, this is not good.

P.S. : Shove your IAMPF where the sun don't shine.

Traymark,

Pilots and FA's agreed to expedited negotiations and cried after falling behind their peers. Apples to oranges.

P. Rez

 

[Traymark]

Why isn't there 7 day a week negotiations until this is done?
That's what happened in 03 when they couldn't wait to take our money away.

 

[Traymark]

P. Rez
We are further behind our peers than the pilots were when they got their bump.
But in your eyes, it's all good.

 

[pjirish317]

P. Rez
We are further behind our peers than the pilots were when they got their bump.
But in your eyes, it's all good.

Traymark,
I have a few questions for you, and I do not mean for them to offend, so if they do, my apologies beforehand.
1. In your eyes, how are we further behind our peers?
2. Which peers are you reffering to?
3. Are you LAA or LUS?
I myself do not think that they are dragging their feet or talking a long time in these negotiations. They are attempting to intergrate 2 vastly different CBA's into 1 all the while attempting to also intergrate 2 vastly different cultures. In my opinion, there will be 2 HUGE issues that will potentially bring these JCBA negotiations to a schreeching halt. Those 2 issues will be scope and insurance. WIth scope, LUS has arguably the best scope in the industry, with 1 mainline flight a day, LAA's scope is far far worse. Anything more than 1 mainline flight a day is going to be a HUGE concession for the LUS folks, and anything that is far less that what LAA has is going to be a huge improvement for them. Also with the insurance. If the LUS folks have to go with the current LAA plan, that is a concession for the LUS folks. No change for the LAA folks there. So I do not believe that we will have a JCBA by summer. I am hopeful that we may have one by the late fall, but again, this all depends on how these to issues come together in negotiations. And I would rather them take the time to get it right the first time, rather than rush and miss gains, only to have to wait maybe another 8-10 years. Of course this is just my 2 cents worth.

 

[WeAAsles]

Aircraft Mechanics nothing personal but do you mind not harassing our FLEET Negotiators.

You already long ago now ran off all the decent people on your threads, now you want to run them off ours too?

 

[dfw gen]

18 months of negotiations averaging less then 5 actual days of face to face a month is acceptable?

 

[Traymark]

I have a few questions for you, and I do not mean for them to offend, so if they do, my apologies beforehand.
1. In your eyes, how are we further behind our peers?
2. Which peers are you reffering to?
3. Are you LAA or LUS?
I myself do not think that they are dragging their feet or talking a long time in these negotiations. They are attempting to intergrate 2 vastly different CBA's into 1 all the while attempting to also intergrate 2 vastly different cultures. In my opinion, there will be 2 HUGE issues that will potentially bring these JCBA negotiations to a schreeching halt. Those 2 issues will be scope and insurance. WIth scope, LUS has arguably the best scope in the industry, with 1 mainline flight a day, LAA's scope is far far worse. Anything more than 1 mainline flight a day is going to be a HUGE concession for the LUS folks, and anything that is far less that what LAA has is going to be a huge improvement for them. Also with the insurance. If the LUS folks have to go with the current LAA plan, that is a concession for the LUS folks. No change for the LAA folks there. So I do not believe that we will have a JCBA by summer. I am hopeful that we may have one by the late fall, but again, this all depends on how these to issues come together in negotiations. And I would rather them take the time to get it right the first time, rather than rush and miss gains, only to have to wait maybe another 8-10 years. Of course this is just my 2 cents worth.

1.Delta has higher pay since their recent raise. We only recently got the pay and still no talk of the 4% bump the rest of the company enjoyed for almost 2 years while we got nothing.
The largest disparity is benefits. AA has the worst.
Our 401 match is only 5.5%. Also, it's only a match while others get a Contribution.
~Southwest Airlines = 9.6% 401K match
~Delta = 3% Contribution 6% match = 9% total
~United = 2% Contribution 4% match = 6%total

I would gladly take the average of the those 3 ^^^ over the IAMPF in any form.
That average would be 8.2% and make at least 3% of it a contribution.

~Our sick days are the worst = 5 and they only pay half a days pay, pathetic.
~We have the least paid holidays = 5 while our peers have 10 at double time or double time and a half while ours is time and a half, pathetic.
~We have the lowest VC of any of the majors.
~We have the worst overtime rules of any of the majors.

I'll stop there.
I wonder how long the pilots would go with just those disparities I listed?
They would have fired their negotiators by now, but they were smart, they hire the best lawyers they can find to negotiate for them.
We let our rank and file negotiate for us and they get rolled every single time, all the while telling us how complicated it all is.
It wasn't very complicated for the company to re-write all the union contracts at the same time in 2003. In all of 56 days they had all new language , rules and compensation across the board. There were no problems finding times and places to meet, they stayed at the table until it was done.
You want to know what our unions were doing at the same time as those really "expedited" negotiations?
All 3 of our unions were on Capital Hill lobbying DC law makers to give the airlines a break while they were agreeing to taking way less compensation to save all their collective management a$$es only so that when they started making money again, they made damn sure we didn't get a penny of it.

56 Days, all 3 , done, done and done.

I get the LUS folks are A-ok with whatever at this point.
LAA is getting the shaft daily.

 

[conehead777]

Aircraft Mechanics nothing personal but do you mind not harassing our FLEET Negotiators.

You already long ago now ran off all the decent people on your threads, now you want to run them off ours too?

You hypocrite you ran those people off. It's like you say it's a public fourm we can comment on any thread you sure do and you ran all those people off . And your harassing mechanics with your rude comments.

 

[WeAAsles]

You hypocrite you ran those people off. It's like you say it's a public fourm we can comment on any thread you sure do and you ran all those people off . And your harassing mechanics with your rude comments.

I meant people like Overspeed, RealityCk, 700UW and others that didn't follow the Wolf pack attack mentality of thinking on here. The people who had minds of their own and weren't a group of sheep.

 

[Albert]

I meant people like Overspeed, RealityCk, 700UW and others that didn't follow the Wolf pack attack mentality of thinking on here. The people who had minds of their own and weren't a group of sheep.

Lemmings Weez they're lemmings

 

[NYer]

Aircraft Mechanics nothing personal but do you mind not harassing our FLEET Negotiators.

You already long ago now ran off all the decent people on your threads, now you want to run them off ours too?

You left this on another thread. Just wanted to return it since it looks like you need it.

Don't forget the tip of your nose.

 

[WeAAsles]

You left this on another thread. Just wanted to return it since it looks like you need it.

View attachment 11790

Don't forget the tip of your nose.

Delete.

 

[robbedagain]

Traymark. Im a LUS. Being in a smaller station i for one wld like to see a JCBA. Albeit one with no concessions such as LUS goin to AA insurance for example. You got to remember 2 different unions with vastly different CBAs. The pilots, flight attendants and the gate/tkt agents are not as happy from what i hear. Inside folks gave up baggage service which to me is a concession given company multi billion dollar profits. I do believe they should have far more talks scheduled. Grandfather in all current cities. Use US scope rather than LAA scope for example. Sick yes that must be repaired

 

[Traymark]

1.one with no concessions such as LUS goin to AA insurance for example.
2. You got to remember 2 different unions with vastly different CBAs.
3.The pilots, flight attendants and the gate/tkt agents are not as happy from what i hear.
4.Inside folks gave up baggage service which to me is a concession given company multi billion dollar profits.
5. I do believe they should have far more talks scheduled.
6.Grandfather in all current cities. Use US scope rather than LAA scope for example.
7.Sick yes that must be repaired

1. Good luck. Every other work group was moved to AA insurance, the IAM and TWU are basically married to playing ball with the company. I'll explain later...

2. I'm also remembering the 3 different pilots unions, East, West and AA.
4 months later, they were all one and making a whole lot more money. Somebody is going to have to come with a compelling case that the pilots contract is not as complicated as ours before I'll believe it.

3. Might not be totally happy, but the pilots and F/A's got their money very quickly and recently got even more outside of the contract language, while we still remain with the absolute worst benefits in the industry. My heart bleeds for them, NOT.

4. They got the union to put it up for a vote, enough voters wanted the money, thats how it works and stay tuned on your #1, and #6 points, the exact same strategery is coming to a JCBA near you soon.

5. Welcome to the club.
You know what I don't see? International union leaders calling out the company for lack of negotiations and pi$$ poor pace.
Does anybody else ask themselves why not? Or are you good with the "it's complicated" line, which has basically been blown up.

My take:
Both of these unions are beholden to the company for even being on the property.
The company only had to dispute the forming of the "Association" to the NMB and there would have been a vote triggered for representation rights.
It was well within the companies right , they didn't need to give a reason.
Instead, there was no objection to the "Association" and the NMB slid it in without any of us getting to vote on our cool new representation. Awesome ,isn't it?

If you don't think that little maneuver by the company didn't come at a cost, you're not being intellectually honest with yourself.

There WILL be concessions.
You WILL be put on AA health insurance.
Your scope WILL be the LAA scope or worse for fleet and the LUS scope for M&R which is worse than LAA.
And, I believe, until I see otherwise, we will all be forced into the IAMPF if the JCBA is voted in, because they will try and make it fly, after a nice and lengthy delay.

Oh yes indeed, the "Association" is going to have to "pay up" in order enjoy the benefit of being on the property.
You see, both unions knew a representation vote was going to go very badly for at least one of them and most likely both of them in M&R so they made a deal with the devil.

They need 50% +1, that's the way the world works.

Final point.
Prove me wrong Association. Show me a JCBA that is truly industry leading in every facet and lets every single LAA member stay out of the IAMPF regardless of where they are in the system, be it TWU station or IAM station.
Don't forget, there are stations that will go all IAM after the JCBA and some that will go all TWU.
~ Will any current LAA TWU members in those stations be forced into the IAMPF simply because they will be in the IAM because of location, never getting to vote on that representation change?
~Will any current LUS IAM members in those stations that are TWU get to exit the IAMPF as they will no longer be IAM because of location, again, never getting to vote on that representation change?
Does anybody think this should be discussed with our negotiators before they put any IAMPF language in the contract for anybody?

I'd love to hear P.Rez's musings on my last point.
The silence from our NC on the IAMPF issue is deafening.
Actually, I only hear Rez say how much better a Pension is than a 401K, when nothing could be further from the truth.