JCBA Negotiations and updates for AA Fleet

[NYer]

What if keeping the IAMNPF is a deal breaker for Sito?

This will be a minor issue as long as the IAM keeps their current participation. For the Company, the 401K match is a bigger expense so it's a wash for them.

 

[AANOTOK]

This argument started many moons ago. I asked then and request now, someone who is worried about it show me legally where AA can dump my pension into the IAMNPF...

 

[OldGuy@AA]

This argument started many moons ago. I asked then and request now, someone who is worried about it show me legally where AA can dump my pension into the IAMNPF...

Mark Roeber who is the TWU retirement specialist that gets paid a retainer by us says in a nut shell all that has to happen is the TWU ask Parker to put our pension into the IAMNPF and if he agrees (Why wouldn't he?) it happens. There is no liability because it goes in as is with no extra funding by AA. Think about it... I have heard from the TWU that the Air Cal mechanics in Oakland would never come to Tulsa.... AA closed Oakland and most of them came here. I have heard from the TWU that we would never lose prefunding because it was bankruptcy proof also. Please forgive me for not wanting to believe any more "Nevers". I do not trust Lombardo and I do not trust AA. Parker would love to dump our pension and if he has a chance to push it into the IAMNPF then he'll gladly do it. Lombardo agreed to put us into it in the association agreement. Take a look for yourself. AANOTOK we are too old to not have any pension to retire to. We didn't have enough time or money to fund a 401K either. We cannot allow Lombardo to give our pension away to someone who won't pay us. Be very careful and don't believe anyone from the TWU when they say something could never happen. It happens and then they shrug and say they didn't think it would. About our pension I have heard "I can't happen." then when I said what Roeber said they said "It won't happen." now it is "We don't think it will happen." I have been burned too many times my friend. Do not allow them to do this to us. That being said it is a fleet thread and if you guys are happy with a pension fund that is in the red that is up to you. I don't want my pension to disappear into the IAMNPF though and if yours goes in then I won't have a choice and mine will go in too.

 

[Albert]

Mark Roeber who is the TWU retirement specialist that gets paid a retainer by us says in a nut shell all that has to happen is the TWU ask Parker to put our pension into the IAMNPF and if he agrees (Why wouldn't he?) it happens. There is no liability because it goes in as is with no extra funding by AA. Think about it... I have heard from the TWU that the Air Cal mechanics in Oakland would never come to Tulsa.... AA closed Oakland and most of them came here. I have heard from the TWU that we would never lose prefunding because it was bankruptcy proof also. Please forgive me for not wanting to believe any more "Nevers". I do not trust Lombardo and I do not trust AA. Parker would love to dump our pension and if he has a chance to push it into the IAMNPF then he'll gladly do it. Lombardo agreed to put us into it in the association agreement. Take a look for yourself. AANOTOK we are too old to not have any pension to retire to. We didn't have enough time or money to fund a 401K either. We cannot allow Lombardo to give our pension away to someone who won't pay us. Be very careful and don't believe anyone from the TWU when they say something could never happen. It happens and then they shrug and say they didn't think it would. About our pension I have heard "I can't happen." then when I said what Roeber said they said "It won't happen." now it is "We don't think it will happen." I have been burned too many times my friend. Do not allow them to do this to us. That being said it is a fleet thread and if you guys are happy with a pension fund that is in the red that is up to you. I don't want my pension to disappear into the IAMNPF though and if yours goes in then I won't have a choice and mine will go in too.

Old Guy think about what you are saying AA is going to dump millions into the frozen plans it is frozen not terminated like the US plan. Why would the IAMPF take on that liability it makes no sense. Again AA will be dumping BILLIONS into the AA plans and the LUS folks won't see a dime

 

[NYer]

Mark Roeber who is the TWU retirement specialist that gets paid a retainer by us says in a nut shell all that has to happen is the TWU ask Parker to put our pension into the IAMNPF and if he agrees (Why wouldn't he?) it happens. There is no liability because it goes in as is with no extra funding by AA. Think about it... I have heard from the TWU that the Air Cal mechanics in Oakland would never come to Tulsa.... AA closed Oakland and most of them came here. I have heard from the TWU that we would never lose prefunding because it was bankruptcy proof also. Please forgive me for not wanting to believe any more "Nevers". I do not trust Lombardo and I do not trust AA. Parker would love to dump our pension and if he has a chance to push it into the IAMNPF then he'll gladly do it. Lombardo agreed to put us into it in the association agreement. Take a look for yourself. AANOTOK we are too old to not have any pension to retire to. We didn't have enough time or money to fund a 401K either. We cannot allow Lombardo to give our pension away to someone who won't pay us. Be very careful and don't believe anyone from the TWU when they say something could never happen. It happens and then they shrug and say they didn't think it would. About our pension I have heard "I can't happen." then when I said what Roeber said they said "It won't happen." now it is "We don't think it will happen." I have been burned too many times my friend. Do not allow them to do this to us. That being said it is a fleet thread and if you guys are happy with a pension fund that is in the red that is up to you. I don't want my pension to disappear into the IAMNPF though and if yours goes in then I won't have a choice and mine will go in too.

First. The Association agreement is for the prioritizing of the IAMNP in negotiations. That safeguards those that have that as a retirement vehicle. The agreement also states that if the Association is unsuccessful, the TWU would support the IAM keeping their Pension while the rest of us continue with the 401K.

Second. Even if, and is not a given, AA and the TWU would agree to dump the pensions there is no way the IAM will assume billions in liabilities from an underfunded pension. That aside, the PBGC would also have a say in such a transaction which could hasten the liability to be dropped on their lap in the event the IAM defaults.

This conspiracy theory just makes no sense.

 

[AANOTOK]

OldGuy,
So you're saying that Mark Roeber will no longer back up this quote he made back in 2014?

IAM National Pension Plan.
"If and when we get this plan initiated it will be a separate plan. This means that you’re AA frozen plan stays right where it is and the IAM plan will start as a NEW plan. You might have to wait for the vesting period, and if you are only in the plan for the next 2 years, you might not get any great benefit from it. But if you have another 10,15 or 20 years before you retire you might see a sizeable monthly check, each person would be different".

Hope you and your family are well, Buddy.

 

[OldGuy@AA]

A friend went to retirement counseling with him and I asked him to ask that question. He basically said it can be done very easily. As I said.... When TWU people say something can't happen it turns out it can lots of times. We'll find out if we ever see a TA. Right now there is a legitimate fear that Lombardo is in the process of selling us out. Time will tell but I don't trust him.

 

[WeAAsles]

A friend went to retirement counseling with him and I asked him to ask that question. He basically said it can be done very easily. As I said.... When TWU people say something can't happen it turns out it can lots of times. We'll find out if we ever see a TA. Right now there is a legitimate fear that Lombardo is in the process of selling us out. Time will tell but I don't trust him.

OldGuy a few years ago I called the PBGC to ask about this because I was just as concerned as you were. One of their Lawyers got back to me and did confirm that yes the IAMPF could be given the AA Defined Benefit Pension. But here's a few reasons why it's not going to happen.

Our part of the Pension is underfunded by I believe 2 Billion dollars. The entire IAMPF is worth 20 Billion. What she told me is if the IAMPF took over AA's plan they would have to come up with a plan to shore up the underfunding in two years or have to make cuts to everyone who is in the IAMPF to get it back to green zone status.

AA would obviously be the ones on the hook to make those accelerated payments (Do you really believe everyone who is currently in the IAMPF with all the groups the IAM represents would accept that anyway) And currently AA has many more years than just two to make up those funding shortfalls. As a matter of fact they were even seeking out Legislaters to give them even more time (To equal the timeframe competing Airlines gained before AA went to BK)

Now another thing just to interject common sense. Why would AA want to place ANY of our Pensions in an ongoing fund that could become at risk in the future when all they have to do is finish the funding owed and lock the door?

Do you really think that the Company wants a bunch of us old Geezers stuck at AA limping around draining their medical expenditures because they did something stupid with our DBP? Of course not. Us old foggies sticking around croaking all over the Ramp would cost them a fortune not being able to replace us with the young blood until we did croak.

Again absolutely not would the IAMPF Board of trustees even think about touching our Pension. They have a fiduciary responsibility to ALL people who are a part of that fund and would not place it at risk.

And why I said not going to happen, period.

 

[chilokie1]

OldGuy a few years ago I called the PBGC to ask about this because I was just as concerned as you were. One of their Lawyers got back to me and did confirm that yes the IAMPF could be given the AA Defined Benefit Pension. But here's a few reasons why it's not going to happen.

Our part of the Pension is underfunded by I believe 2 Billion dollars. The entire IAMPF is worth 20 Billion. What she told me is if the IAMPF took over AA's plan they would have to come up with a plan to shore up the underfunding in two years or have to make cuts to everyone who is in the IAMPF to get it back to green zone status.

AA would obviously be the ones on the hook to make those accelerated payments (Do you really believe everyone who is currently in the IAMPF with all the groups the IAM represents would accept that anyway) And currently AA has many more years than just two to make up those funding shortfalls. As a matter of fact they were even seeking out Legislaters to give them even more time (To equal the timeframe competing Airlines gained before AA went to BK)

Now another thing just to interject common sense. Why would AA want to place ANY of our Pensions in an ongoing fund that could become at risk in the future when all they have to do is finish the funding owed and lock the door?

Do you really think that the Company wants a bunch of us old Geezers stuck at AA limping around draining their medical expenditures because they did something stupid with our DBP? Of course not. Us old foggies sticking around croaking all over the Ramp would cost them a fortune not being able to replace us with the young blood until we did croak.

Again absolutely not would the IAMPF Board of trustees even think about touching our Pension. They have a fiduciary responsibility to ALL people who are a part of that fund and would not place it at risk.

And why I said not going to happen, period.

Great points, but we should not even be having this conversation.

Any Union leadership worth their salt would never work to get its
membership enrolled in any multi company pension plan in 2017.

 

[CremaDiLimone]

Our part of the Pension is underfunded by I believe 2 Billion dollars. The entire IAMPF is worth 20 Billion. What she told me is if the IAMPF took over AA's plan they would have to come up with a plan to shore up the underfunding in two years or have to make cuts to everyone who is in the IAMPF to get it back to green zone status.

during january's conference call, CFO kerr told us that:

- aa has $17 billion in pension obligations
- assets are around $10 billion

given the fact that the 'airline pension relief act' is expiring, aa told investors and analysts that:

- aa will deposit $300 million into the fund in this quarter.
- aa will make a $1.1 billion contribution to the fund in 2018.
- aa will make an $850 million contribution to the fund in 2019.

that's $2.25 billion 2017-2019. the jet fuel windfall is over...heavy stock buybacks are being scaled back a bit and going forward, aa will tackle pension contributions and debt.

stifel-nicolaus slapped a lofty $95 target price on aal, mainly due to the credit card deal made last summer...and expectations of aa chipping away at it's debt.

 

[WeAAsles]

Great points, but we should not even be having this conversation.

Any Union leadership worth their salt would never work to get its
membership enrolled in any multi company pension plan in 2017.

Of course we should be having this conversation. Maybe you and I might be too far along in our careers where joining is not really be worth it? But we have new hires some who aren't even 20 Years Old yet here in Fleet. Why shouldn't they be given the choice if they want to join the fund?

I personally look at it as it's just another retirement option not much different then any of the other funds you pick from when you set up your choices in your 401k.

The IAMPF is an investment in the IAM continuing to draw in the people they represent into the fund, continuing to gain new membership of course and confidence in the Company's where they represent people. The IAM represents a lot of people in Aviation which is in growth mode that's forecasted to continue as the Global population explodes.

Again who knows if we'll even have the "choice" to make on our side? The Company may not be interested in making that deal and our side may wind up moving on from trying?

 

[WeAAsles]

during january's conference call, CFO kerr told us that:

- aa has $17 billion in pension obligations
- assets are around $10 billion

given the fact that the 'airline pension relief act' is expiring, aa told investors and analysts that:

- aa will deposit $300 million into the fund in this quarter.
- aa will make a $1.1 billion contribution to the fund in 2018.
- aa will make an $850 million contribution to the fund in 2019.

that's $2.25 billion 2017-2019. the jet fuel windfall is over...heavy stock buybacks are being scaled back a bit and going forward, aa will tackle pension contributions and debt.

stifel-nicolaus slapped a lofty $95 target price on aal, mainly due to the credit card deal made last summer...and expectations of aa chipping away at it's debt.

Thanks. I think I had heard that our owed portion in that obligation is around 2 Billion? The rest being owed mostly to the Pilots.

 

[WeAAsles]

OldGuy,
So you're saying that Mark Roeber will no longer back up this quote he made back in 2014?

IAM National Pension Plan.
"If and when we get this plan initiated it will be a separate plan. This means that you’re AA frozen plan stays right where it is and the IAM plan will start as a NEW plan. You might have to wait for the vesting period, and if you are only in the plan for the next 2 years, you might not get any great benefit from it. But if you have another 10,15 or 20 years before you retire you might see a sizeable monthly check, each person would be different".

Hope you and your family are well, Buddy.

The IAMPF Board of trustees has the ability to waive the 5 year vesting period. Personally if they didn't do that with how many older guys we have at LAA I would say forget it, not interested. (And no that doesn't mean they're going to give you all your years of credited service with LAA either for your payout)

No for guys that only have a short time left to go at the NAA (New American Airlines) the IAMPF wouldn't be a good investment against a continuing 401k match or a higher percentage on that.

Under a certain amount of years if the member has vested the IAMPF has the right to just pay you out and not have to give you monthly benefits. I suspect anything under 5 years actual time in is where they'd do that.

I have 10 to 13 years left to go so yes I have some homework to do "if" I have a choice to make.

 

[OldGuy@AA]

OldGuy a few years ago I called the PBGC to ask about this because I was just as concerned as you were. One of their Lawyers got back to me and did confirm that yes the IAMPF could be given the AA Defined Benefit Pension. But here's a few reasons why it's not going to happen.

Our part of the Pension is underfunded by I believe 2 Billion dollars. The entire IAMPF is worth 20 Billion. What she told me is if the IAMPF took over AA's plan they would have to come up with a plan to shore up the underfunding in two years or have to make cuts to everyone who is in the IAMPF to get it back to green zone status.

AA would obviously be the ones on the hook to make those accelerated payments (Do you really believe everyone who is currently in the IAMPF with all the groups the IAM represents would accept that anyway) And currently AA has many more years than just two to make up those funding shortfalls. As a matter of fact they were even seeking out Legislaters to give them even more time (To equal the timeframe competing Airlines gained before AA went to BK)

Now another thing just to interject common sense. Why would AA want to place ANY of our Pensions in an ongoing fund that could become at risk in the future when all they have to do is finish the funding owed and lock the door?

Do you really think that the Company wants a bunch of us old Geezers stuck at AA limping around draining their medical expenditures because they did something stupid with our DBP? Of course not. Us old foggies sticking around croaking all over the Ramp would cost them a fortune not being able to replace us with the young blood until we did croak.

Again absolutely not would the IAMPF Board of trustees even think about touching our Pension. They have a fiduciary responsibility to ALL people who are a part of that fund and would not place it at risk.

And why I said not going to happen, period.

If you came to Tulsa you would see a bunch of old geezers who can't go anywhere because our retirement medical is gone and our pension is frozen. AA obviously doesn't care how many oldtimers hang around. You insinuate that AA cares about it's employees when they couldn't care less. They would love to be rid of the pension and I would bet that if they can't dump it off into the IAMNPF they will dump it on the PBGC as soon as they can. Just the money owed to the pensions could allow them to file another bankruptcy and then dump it on the PBGC where it will pay pennies on the dollar. That is another reason why there are so many oldtimers still here. They know their pension could be gone and that AA would look for ways to get rid of it. I don't want to take up space on your thread and continue arguing about this but I think we agree that it is possible that our pension could be rolled into the PBGC. Roeber said that AA would not have to make up the funding either. He said it would go as is. As far as the IAMNPF I do not trust the IAM and I believe they would take our pension money in order to satisfy their retiree payments for the short term. They continue to try to sell this plan as viable when it is in danger of having to cut benefits. Basically they may be desperate enough to do it. As far as the company being stupid.... Don't you think it was stupid to get rid of the prefunded medical for retirees? That is the main cause of the median age of AMTs in Tulsa being 58 years old. We can't retire with no medical and AA doesn't care. As matter of fact they offer a retiree medical plan that would cost over $35,000 per year to us. Does that sound like they care?

 

[WeAAsles]

If you came to Tulsa you would see a bunch of old geezers who can't go anywhere because our retirement medical is gone and our pension is frozen. AA obviously doesn't care how many oldtimers hang around. You insinuate that AA cares about it's employees when they couldn't care less. They would love to be rid of the pension and I would bet that if they can't dump it off into the IAMNPF they will dump it on the PBGC as soon as they can. Just the money owed to the pensions could allow them to file another bankruptcy and then dump it on the PBGC where it will pay pennies on the dollar. That is another reason why there are so many oldtimers still here. They know their pension could be gone and that AA would look for ways to get rid of it. I don't want to take up space on your thread and continue arguing about this but I think we agree that it is possible that our pension could be rolled into the PBGC. Roeber said that AA would not have to make up the funding either. He said it would go as is. As far as the IAMNPF I do not trust the IAM and I believe they would take our pension money in order to satisfy their retiree payments for the short term. They continue to try to sell this plan as viable when it is in danger of having to cut benefits. Basically they may be desperate enough to do it. As far as the company being stupid.... Don't you think it was stupid to get rid of the prefunded medical for retirees? That is the main cause of the median age of AMTs in Tulsa being 58 years old. We can't retire with no medical and AA doesn't care. As matter of fact they offer a retiree medical plan that would cost over $35,000 per year to us. Does that sound like they care?

OldGuy you're not taking up any space here at all and as a matter of fact I welcome your input.

I am sorry though that it appears there's no way to convince you that it just might be ok to let your guard down some. But I do know where the fear comes from and also understand it. And this guy Roeber is wrong if he told you that.

Happy Easter to you and your family.