JCBA Negotiations and updates for AA Fleet

[WeAAsles]

Crema,

I am currently FT at LUS. I started as PT. Back then PT employees accrued 50% of FT seniority. That stopped around 95-96. I stated here before LUS wages were at $24.39 topped out employee, with the lead premium at $1.50. What was LAA at? But it seems you are dodging the question I asked. How/why do you feel the LUS folks benefitted more than the LAA folks did with the merger?

He wants to hit you with what your pay rates were before you got your standalone CBA.

So if a guy working at McDonalds for minimum wage gets a job at AA maybe we should talk about him too?

He just wants you to say that you benefitted more from the merger than we did for whatever reason he needs you to say it? Please just give it to him already.

 

[CremaDiLimone]

Anything other than how to integrate the two lists would need to be handled within the negotiations process.

Whether he had an Association or not, the seniority questions would still necessitate taking into consideration the same issues dealt with by Neutral Javits.

ok...i said that if this would have been an issue for the twu, it would have had to have been hammered out with the iam, prior to any association forming. that would have been step 1 on the flow chart.

obviously, it wasn't an issue.

handing over a fait accompli that will anger many wouldn't have been the only one that actually occurred. there was one that little presented the union presidents with...the association.

I disagree with the notion that integrating seniority lists means we need to treat one side different than the other.

i disagree with the notion that fairness should be jettisoned so everyone can quickly enjoy the billions to made from a merger -profits or union dues/prestige. the square pegs of the seniority rules of stand-alone laa and stand-alone lus don't really fit the round holes of seniority integration of the 'new' aa.

 

[WeAAsles]

ok...i said that if this would have been an issue for the twu, it would have had to have been hammered out with the iam, prior to any association forming. that would have been step 1 on the flow chart.

obviously, it wasn't an issue.

handing over a fait accompli that will anger many wouldn't have been the only one that actually occurred. there was one that little presented the union presidents with...the association.



i disagree with the notion that fairness should be jettisoned so everyone can quickly enjoy the billions to made from a merger -profits or union dues/prestige. the square pegs of the seniority rules of stand-alone laa and stand-alone lus don't really fit the round holes of seniority integration of the 'new' aa.

"In June, the Association retained the services of Neutral Javits, former Chairman of the National Mediation Board and member of the National Academy of Arbitrators, to conduct a comprehensive analysis of the Association’s Seniority Integration Committee’s work and to resolve identified issues and differences that required expert attention to reach a fair and equitable integration of seniority lists. Neutral Javits’ Report and Recommendations and initial integrated seniority lists—created in accordance with earlier seniority integration agreements—reflect this comprehensive analysis and explain how the seniority lists are integrated.

During the fact-finding stage of Neutral Javits’ comprehensive analysis, TWU-IAM Association members submitted 836 detailed comments. Additionally, Neutral Javits met with and received remarks from the TWU-IAM negotiators and the Seniority Integration Committee. All of these comments were carefully deliberated by Neutral Javits and guided how he grappled with the more intricate and highly complex aspects of the seniority integration process.

Integrating seniority lists is the most important issue that affects our membership in an airline merger. The TWU-IAM Association and Neutral Javits have undertaken this seniority integration process with great care and deliberation so that all Association members at American Airlines are treated fairly and equitably."

 

[CremaDiLimone]

Crema,
I stated here before LUS wages were at $24.39 topped out employee, with the lead premium at $1.50.

i know you stated that. that was your wage in 2012 - 2013? if it was, you guys may have been the best paid in the industry.

am i imagining things when 3 legacy us air guys told me that thanks to the merger, they got a bump up in pay to level off at laa pay. there are legacy lus clerks in my station.

the laa clerks in question say that lus clerks have benefited a bit more in pay since the merger. prior to the merger and now. personally, i have said it isn't a big deal for me.

you're denying all that? you were making the same or more than laa prior to the merger?

 

[WeAAsles]

i know you stated that. that was your wage in 2012 - 2013? if it was, you guys may have been the best paid in the industry.

am i imagining things when 3 legacy us air guys told me that thanks to the merger, they got a bump up in pay to level off at laa pay. there are legacy lus clerks in my station.

the laa clerks in question say that lus clerks have benefited a bit more in pay since the merger. prior to the merger and now. personally, i have said it isn't a big deal for me.

you're denying all that? you were making the same or more than laa prior to the merger?

Here. Page 115. What they were making.

http://www.iam141.org/docs/IAM-FS_2008_Contract_Final_to_Print_102808.pdf

 

[WeAAsles]

Now Crema I hope if you're going to make the comparison to how great we are against how they benefitted you do count where we were before the BK?

Let's see. We were making around .50 cents an hour more than them for Jan 2012 but they paid and still pay a lot less for medical than we do.

And we only got our raises because we gave up 17% of our total labor costs which meant losing Cabin, more Stations, Retiree Medical, Frozen Pension and a rise in the overall percentage that we contribute to our medical costs.

The raises we got were for two reasons. #1 we gained back 3% of the price we were supposed to pay in BK from 20% to 17% which gave us raises. And then we exchanged our 5% Profit Sharing formula to Parker for more wages.

That was all before the US IAM had finished their negotiations.

Now a question for you? Do you know how many Stations they have staffed against how many we have?

Lots of Apples and Oranges are going to come out in this conversation.

 

[WeAAsles]

2011 Average yearly wages and benefits for Passenger Cargo and Aircraft Handling (Not including productivity)

US $36,489

AA $42,790

Now again that's average from the end of 4 years ago. But the question is what was the average age of the members at both airlines in 2011? How many were at TOS in comparison?

Looking at that new seniority list I know that US has far more junior members than LAA has.

How much does this factor in to those apples and oranges?

Oh and Crema you may want to go back and make a comparison on the years 1995 to 2001. Oh you are REALLY NOT going to be a very happy camper.

http://web.mit.edu/airlinedata/www/default.html

 

[lax]

He wants to hit you with what your pay rates were before you got your standalone CBA.

So if a guy working at McDonalds for minimum wage gets a job at AA maybe we should talk about him too?

He just wants you to say that you benefitted more from the merger than we did for whatever reason he needs you to say it? Please just give it to him already.

Ahh don't make him say it. Most of us know its a fact anyways.This ass group that supposedly had endless resources and mind boggling experience hasn't provided aaers with one single benefit, not one. Yes, the pay was restored and of course that's a good thing but then again we all know who was responsible for that. Hopefully the sitting in of Lombardo and Sito in the next meeting is a sign that the sloth-like movements of the Iam are coming to an end.

 

[Talos]

Ahh don't make him say it. Most of us know its a fact anyways.This ass group that supposedly had endless resources and mind boggling experience hasn't provided aaers with one single benefit, not one. Yes, the pay was restored and of course that's a good thing but then again we all know who was responsible for that. Hopefully the sitting in of Lombardo and Sito in the next meeting is a sign that the sloth-like movements of the Iam are coming to an end.

Hopefully things will improve with the top guys sitting in.I think the Association meant well but is more of a stumbling block than a help. The company has taken advantage of this. After a year the progress besides the pay increase is poor with no end in sight. The industry changes with the economy and you know the company will play that to the max. I really hope the top guys can get something done here.

 

[NYer]

ok...i said that if this would have been an issue for the twu, it would have had to have been hammered out with the iam, prior to any association forming. that would have been step 1 on the flow chart.

obviously, it wasn't an issue.

handing over a fait accompli that will anger many wouldn't have been the only one that actually occurred. there was one that little presented the union presidents with...the association.



i disagree with the notion that fairness should be jettisoned so everyone can quickly enjoy the billions to made from a merger -profits or union dues/prestige. the square pegs of the seniority rules of stand-alone laa and stand-alone lus don't really fit the round holes of seniority integration of the 'new' aa.

If you want to look at one issue and have that issue addressed in the manner you prefer, then you will believe it was a fair resolution. The fact of the matter is that there is absolutely no way to integrate these two seniority lists without having a particular segment of the Members upset because their personal situation wasn't fixed in their preferred manner.

The goal, then, is to merge the two lists with minimal disruption to the majority. Any movement to fix past issues will only bring upon us more problems and a larger set of matters affecting more Members.

You can complain, but you haven't brought forth a better alternative than what was proposed by the Neutral. This process is to join two lists, not fix what some believe was unfair or unjust from prior CBA's.

 

[WeAAsles]

Ahh don't make him say it. Most of us know its a fact anyways.This ass group that supposedly had endless resources and mind boggling experience hasn't provided aaers with one single benefit, not one. Yes, the pay was restored and of course that's a good thing but then again we all know who was responsible for that. Hopefully the sitting in of Lombardo and Sito in the next meeting is a sign that the sloth-like movements of the Iam are coming to an end.

The problem is at least here on this Forums you don't have anyone on the IAM side (Except Al) coming on here and really being honest about their feelings in these joint talks.

The honest truth is they're fearful about what will eventually come to us to be voted on.

They don't want their medical costs to maybe increase and they don't like the idea that maybe there could be changes to their 1 flight per day SCOPE language. And with the wages now pretty much in pocket except for some more loose change it comes down to just how PJ worded it

"Why the rush"

The IAM side at the moment really and honestly has no emphasis or motivation to want to rush or really even from a one side point of view to try and conclude the talks. (Certainly not saying to accept crap and be done with it either)

The idea behind this Association I thought was supposed to be to benefit the entire collective and not have any one side vs the other mentality? I also haven't seen any of that bear fruit. The IAM and TWU are still fighting Political and Legislative agendas out there as separate entities and I haven't seen one item yet where they have teamed up their resources unless it was a joint "letter" against AA. I really thought they were going to work more closely together or again that was the intention?

So unfortunately so far this Association, partnership, friendship, whatever has so far been showing itself to be a bust for any cohesive ideology. So so far it really has been nothing more than about keeping those dues.

I have to be honest about what I've seen so far.

 

[La Li Lu Le Lo]

The idea behind this Association I thought was supposed to be to benefit the entire collective and not have any one side vs the other mentality? I also haven't seen any of that bear fruit. The IAM and TWU are still fighting Political and Legislative agendas out there as separate entities and I haven't seen one item yet where they have teamed up their resources unless it was a joint "letter" against AA. I really thought they were going to work more closely together or again that was the intention?

So unfortunately so far this Association, partnership, friendship, whatever has so far been showing itself to be a bust for any cohesive ideology. So so far it really has been nothing more than about keeping those dues.

I have to be honest about what I've seen so far.

It's about time.

 

[WeAAsles]

But "I have always maintained the position" and continue to maintain the position that Unions should not fight Unions.

There are WAY bigger fish to fry out there.

 

[AANOTOK]

Hopefully things will improve with the top guys sitting in.I think the Association meant well but is more of a stumbling block than a help. The company has taken advantage of this. After a year the progress besides the pay increase is poor with no end in sight. The industry changes with the economy and you know the company will play that to the max. I really hope the top guys can get something done here.

Talos, I usually agree with most of the things you say, but on this point I have to disagree. The Association was never set up for you. The only people it was "mean't well" for was the the hierarchy of both organizations. Sure, we received a bump in pay, but so did the organizations as our union does took a bit of a leap as well. Now, everything else that is to be decided doesn't benefit the organization at all. Funny, and these are the things that can't be settled. As a matter of fact, when and if they are settled, some of the folks that this Association was "mean't well" for, might actually end up getting hurt. But again, won't be hurting the hierarchy. These IAM guys are right, why speed up the pace, they are more than likely the ones getting hurt. And the TWU guy, let's get this done, we are still in bankruptcy territory. Either way, the Association is not affected, they have their collective coffers being filled.

 

[AANOTOK]

But "I have always maintained the position" and continue to maintain the position that Unions should not fight Unions.

There are WAY bigger fish to fry out there.

And you and I both know, in that dark building, in that dark room, in that dark corner, we are having that going on right now.