JCBA Negotiations and updates for AA Fleet

[Talos]

I tend to agree with you, I think we will get a contract sooner rather than later...but not sure about end of the year. Possible? sure, Odds, 50/50.
I don't believe the wage adjustment has influenced the negotiations one way or the other in terms of speed. I still have the fear that the two sides are going to have a terrible time agreeing to some articles and that in my opinion is a huge concern.

There will be problems, which are created by the 2 unions dealing with 1 company. What's good for one union  may not be good for the other. The pension situation is another problem. The TWU signed the Association deal saying they would try to stick all of us in the IAMPF. A major blunder made without consulting the members as usual. That will be a problem. Health care is cheaper for the LUS guys so they won't want to pay more. I'm sure work rules have some things to work through also. It's all a result of the arrangement put upon us. I'm sure they meant well in creating this Association and they blundered through long enough for us to get better raises, but it really is a mess and I think will stay a mess.

 

[WeAAsles]

I agree but the question was asked, at what point will you feel your group is exploited with the association?
Our double time will allow us to further distance from twu members in overtime as well as profit sharing.
I realize you believe a jcba may be tied to parker getting a bonus but our union leaders have made it very clear that they will stall talks prior to coughing up our scope and health care unless we get a monster of a deal from parker.
Ned said it will be years instead of months as nothing is so significant to compell management to toss us tons more. What is left is collateral damage that can be managed cost effectively.
Give me a scenerio that supports a quick jcba?
Unless our agcs sell out, lus will have to get a couple weeks vacation, several more holidays, a 401 match, shift differ and more money if we lose scope and health care. A bs agreement would b loaded with mine bombs exploading at a future date. For instance, we keep scope and health care for 2 more years then it pops.

If you're going to start rolling out "Ned" again I'm going to have to refrain from the conversation.

But as for "me" I'll play it over time as it progresses. Are you saying that you want me to start bashing the IAM side of the Association publicly? If whispers start to become screams I'd be willing to stand up for the side of the Association that I live in. That I will tell you.

But for now I'm not hearing anything more than whispers so it's not anything I'm going to react to.

And I still think there may be more cash wages left on the table? We only got 1% above UAL when the talk was last at 3%. So I'm thinking 2 to 4% left to guarantee a yes vote when it gets to our desks?

 

[robbedagain]

That I dont know  I do know that we all are getting the lump sum      Before the merger AA had the TWU   we had the IAM    If someone were to transfer to MIA  that individual would be under the TWU   if someone there came here then itd be in the IAM   But if youre in a place like say ATL   that a mainline US city but for AA itd be what Envoy or something?  BWI was AA for long time until about 2012 or 14 something like that  Envoy took over   the  mainline folks went to various AA cities  some came back  and now they feel theyre in the lurch bec they all bid under us   until a JCBA is agreed upon    You can only imagine the anger in them  and weve seen it.   I do believe this would qualify as cross utilization   We actually started out working AA metal in Dec 2014  and it quickly became a disaster  as we were severely short staffed     Weve been told we are over staffed by 18   Im not sure how that is possible when we have roughly 40 flights and our on time performance is basically crap.   The bean counters in DFW who does the  numbers certainly do not take into any consideration of the fact when youre in a station like ours that we do everything from loading/unloading to dumping the crappers to clp and on top of that we work often mutliple flights   and this is not even touching sick calls or any of that.    When we began working AA metal we cleaned their jets just like LUS  (though our station mgr took it away for the 2nd time against our scope which there was a gievance filed   not sure where it stands) 

 

[WeAAsles]

That I dont know  I do know that we all are getting the lump sum      Before the merger AA had the TWU   we had the IAM    If someone were to transfer to MIA  that individual would be under the TWU   if someone there came here then itd be in the IAM   But if youre in a place like say ATL   that a mainline US city but for AA itd be what Envoy or something?  BWI was AA for long time until about 2012 or 14 something like that  Envoy took over   the  mainline folks went to various AA cities  some came back  and now they feel theyre in the lurch bec they all bid under us   until a JCBA is agreed upon    You can only imagine the anger in them  and weve seen it.   I do believe this would qualify as cross utilization   We actually started out working AA metal in Dec 2014  and it quickly became a disaster  as we were severely short staffed     Weve been told we are over staffed by 18   Im not sure how that is possible when we have roughly 40 flights and our on time performance is basically crap.   The bean counters in DFW who does the  numbers certainly do not take into any consideration of the fact when youre in a station like ours that we do everything from loading/unloading to dumping the crappers to clp and on top of that we work often mutliple flights   and this is not even touching sick calls or any of that.    When we began working AA metal we cleaned their jets just like LUS  (though our station mgr took it away for the 2nd time against our scope which there was a gievance filed   not sure where it stands)

It's not cross utilization. Those people that are on recall from us are at the moment yours.

The courtesy recall should have been called a courtesy hiring. They were hired on at IAM LUS for the TOS wage. But they are still new hires on your side in every other way. The only thing they have currently under our contract is 10 years of recall rights. Nothing else.

 

[robbedagain]

theyre former mainline AA and now current AA as we are one airline.   The new hires are the few from Envoy as they were let go  and were out for a few months before our station mgr decided to hire them   

 

[Racer X]

How many LUS were affected by the modification to the IAMPF?

I believe it was fleet only that was on schedule A and were put on schedule B.   I think MTC and related were already on B.   That would amount to be approx 6000 fleet service.      [ 6000 is just a round figure]  

 

[WeAAsles]

theyre former mainline AA and now current AA as we are one airline.   The new hires are the few from Envoy as they were let go  and were out for a few months before our station mgr decided to hire them

But we're still under two separate collective bargaining agreements if both are staffed with separate IAM and TWU members. TWU is not staffed in your city. You took over the work of a subcontractor that was performing work for LAA.

 

[Tim Nelson]

If you're going to start rolling out "Ned" again I'm going to have to refrain from the conversation.
But as for "me" I'll play it over time as it progresses. Are you saying that you want me to start bashing the IAM side of the Association publicly? If whispers start to become screams I'd be willing to stand up for the side of the Association that I live in. That I will tell you.
But for now I'm not hearing anything more than whispers so it's not anything I'm going to react to.
And I still think there may be more cash wages left on the table? We only got 1% above UAL when the talk was last at 3%. So I'm thinking 2 to 4% left to guarantee a yes vote when it gets to our desks?

Wages could do it. Delta is set to announce their wages for next year, soon. Kev?
If delta pops to AA +1 then its possible to juice up wages. As for me personally, being in a hub and not having anyone other than me on my medical next year, any compromises with those terms at lus wont affect me much at all but meeting in the middle may have the support of 50% voting iam nc members if wages and other items are juiced up. My disagreement with your conclusions really stems at my opinion that the company may not move as fast as you may think.

 

[WeAAsles]

Wages could do it. Delta is set to announce their wages for next year, soon. Kev?
If delta pops to AA +1 then its possible to juice up wages. As for me personally, being in a hub and not having anyone other than me on my medical next year, any compromises with those terms at lus wont affect me much at all but meeting in the middle may have the support of 50% voting iam nc members if wages and other items are juiced up. My disagreement with your conclusions really stems at my opinion that the company may not move as fast as you may think.

They may not? I am of course just speculating that I think they want to get this all locked up and finished and begin moving on with whatever grand plans they ultimately have for running the airline?

I'm not so sure any bump would be necessarily predicated on Delta though. Parker did say that the leapfrogging had to end at some point and I think we're just about at that end now. I think they may have left just a little meat on the bone to ensure passage of a JCBA? Without the enticement of just a wee bit more the members may focus in on one or two things they don't particularly like about the deal (Can anything really be perfect) and call for a rejection which gives AA a black eye if they have to go back to the drawing board.

Of course all we're all doing on this board is speculating and running possible scenarios no different than sitting down at a Chess board wondering what our opponents next move will be. But I also think the game is still on and neither side is willing to lay down their King just yet? (If you understand Chess)

 

[Tim Nelson]

They may not? I am of course just speculating that I think they want to get this all locked up and finished and begin moving on with whatever grand plans they ultimately have for running the airline?

I'm not so sure any bump would be necessarily predicated on Delta though. Parker did say that the leapfrogging had to end at some point and I think we're just about at that end now. I think they may have left just a little meat on the bone to ensure passage of a JCBA? Without the enticement of just a wee bit more the members may focus in on one or two things they don't particularly like about the deal (Can anything really be perfect) and call for a rejection which gives AA a black eye if they have to go back to the drawing board.

Of course all we're all doing on this board is speculating and running possible scenarios no different than sitting down at a Chess board wondering what our opponents next move will be. But I also think the game is still on and neither side is willing to lay down their King just yet? (If you understand Chess)

From my perspective, the key will be convincing the 50% of voting LUS members on the NC to recommend the contract. I mean once it comes out, it will pass imo due to the LAA needing so many things that may finally be addressed. Essentially, the JCBA decision will lie with Sito. Because as Sito goes, that's how every NC LUS will go or they will be kicked out.
Remember, these are not typical talks with 141. 141 really isn't even involved as it is the INTL which has the rights under the Association constitution.

Sito signed a Association agreement that violates our District bylaws and puts him in charge of all negotiations. So, Sito has the juice and so the question will be, what will Sito Need? The answer will be the IAMPF since he is a trustee of that fund and it is very dear to him. This was a big hangup in one of the sidebars that made the company finally determine that it wanted to extract the wages now. Of course, the company had selfish reasons as well.

Also, remember, there will be another District election coming up in 2017 so I doubt any NC of LUS hands over scope and health care for a small price. It's gonna have to be something big otherwise there will be incoming political damage to whoever signs a contract that gives things up.

 

[WeAAsles]

From my perspective, the key will be convincing the 50% of voting LUS members on the NC to recommend the contract. I mean once it comes out, it will pass imo due to the LAA needing so many things that may finally be addressed. Essentially, the JCBA decision will lie with Sito. Because as Sito goes, that's how every NC LUS will go or they will be kicked out.Remember, these are not typical talks with 141. 141 really isn't even involved as it is the INTL which has the rights under the Association constitution.Sito signed a Association agreement that violates our District bylaws and puts him in charge of all negotiations. So, Sito has the juice and so the question will be, what will Sito Need? The answer will be the IAMPF since he is a trustee of that fund and it is very dear to him. This was a big hangup in one of the sidebars that made the company finally determine that it wanted to extract the wages now. Of course, the company had selfish reasons as well.Also, remember, there will be another District election coming up in 2017 so I doubt any NC of LUS hands over scope and health care for a small price. It's gonna have to be something big otherwise there will be incoming political damage to whoever signs a contract that gives things up.

Tim you absolutely can't say that 141 is not involved. 21 articles so far TA'd are absolutely their's and our guys in the TWU as well. "Maybe" the end game will involve Harry and Sito but I know as fact that Harry did not put any pressure on our guys on how to vote on the wage agreements. Whether or not Sito pressured your guys on that direction I have no clue honestly? I know that with or without any pressure I would have passed the deal as well if I had been asked. Without that station protection stopgap I probably wouldn't have though.

I have learned that Politics is a beast in the IAM. No one I talk to has denied it. Sometimes maybe it's good and sometimes maybe it's bad. It's certainly in your blood as well though. You've certainly shaken the cage yourself a lot over the years trying to get in or gain a teams voice. The TWU Poitics is more heavy on the Local level but it too factors in to a lesser degree.

Maybe we can look at the Politics of it all from a different perspective though? The Political stalls got us at least financially to where we are right now. It kept the foot on the breaks as other dramatics played out. The IAM drive at Delta forced that company to dramatically raise the bar to get them out of the picture. (Cash always works unfortunately) The Delta campaign got the bar raised for both the FA's (Not stews) and the ramp. UAL then upped the ante which ultimately we're capitalizing on and so is the APFA since they have a clause in their contract that now triggers higher. So yea I have to give your Union and its (Wacky sometimes) Politics credit for getting us to where WE sit today. I think all that gained us an extra 3 to 4 dollars an hour which is going to help very much for our longer term security.

For all its possible issues without the Association had the TWU just steamrolled over the IAM we probably would have had this locked up around the same time as the FA's and the Pilots did? Again Delta "might" not have gone as high as they did with the Ramp and neither would UAL IMO. I don't think either airline would have priced themselves that much over whatever we sat at and again we would have been none the wiser sitting at a max today in the $26 range?

So with all the Political BS. Sometimes got to love it, sometimes got to hate it.

 

[WeAAsles]

BTW American announced their Bankruptcy on Nov 29, 2011
On Feb 14, 2013 the merger with US was announced.
On Dec 9, 2013 American and US were formally merged.

In that timeframe of 5 years max we've gained raises totaling around 42% going from $21 and change to $30 and change (LAA)

Yes our Pensions were frozen but replaced with a 5.5% match (replacing the 6.25% multiplier)
Yes we lost retiree medical (That we self funded anyway)
And our medical went up.

But all of that for so far a 42% raise.

Any LAA people out there still really think the merger was a bad idea?

And for those who wanted to rush.

http://childhoodreading.com/the-tortoise-and-the-hare/

 

[Traymark]

BTW American announced their Bankruptcy on Nov 29, 2011
On Feb 14, 2013 the merger with US was announced.
On Dec 9, 2013 American and US were formally merged.

In that timeframe of 5 years max we've gained raises totaling around 42% going from $21 and change to $30 and change (LAA)

Yes our Pensions were frozen but replaced with a 5.5% match (replacing the 6.25% multiplier)
Yes we lost retiree medical (That we self funded anyway)
And our medical went up.

But all of that for so far a 42% raise.

Any LAA people out there still really think the merger was a bad idea?

And for those who wanted to rush.

http://childhoodreading.com/the-tortoise-and-the-hare/

 
 
 
The merger wasn't a bad idea, the association was.
We'd be better off with and much further down the road with one union, that we all voted on.

 

[WeAAsles]

The merger wasn't a bad idea, the association was.
We'd be better off with and much further down the road with one union, that we all voted on.

Ok. Let's say that the Association had never happened. TWU steamrolled over the IAM and took it by majority since they already held the majority of the membership. The earliest "maybe" we would have had a contract was Nov 2014. (When the FA's held their vote)

Do you remember where the industry was in BASE wages 2 years ago? Again do you think whatever we locked ourselves in to absolutely would have been matched and exceeded by Delta and United?

Maybe? Yes the ball did continue to roll after the APFA was forced into their agreement (Binding interest arbitration) So maybe the ramp would have moved up a ladder as well? Maybe?

Again if they didn't move up a ladder we never would have known and we would have been left none the wiser.

 

[WeAAsles]

Countdown 90 left to go to get it into reverse territory. Keep em coming kiddies. h34r:

Keep staying frosty people.......

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n1hQdfVE38A