IT'S TIME FOR NAME THAT FAMOUS TWU QUOTE

[Bob Owens]

A topped out AMT at AMFA represented Southwest makes about $95,000/year.

Throw in the 9% 401K contribution and that brings them over $100k. 

 

[Bob Owens]

 
O/S
 
By your statement here I see you could admit that the system of how the negotiations were done was Flawed. We were at the mercy of the Few ATD members. Now the Association will send 3 IAM and 3 TWU members, with Tom Buff, sitting at the TOP for the first two yrs.
 
Bylaws won't make a difference if the Association gets in since they have re-written a set of their own.
 
Unless the TWU backs out of this deal we the mechanics of AA and US will be screwed again.
 
What is the real shame, having any title 2 guys in a fleet Local, they are per the NMB part of our class and craft and should be assigned to a local of their peers. 
 
All the slogans they threw our way were just a JOKE. They Never had our best interest in mind. So there isn't any next time the TWU needs to go. You may not like the idea of that but 
The TWU system is flawed, the rif's have not been done the same or our stock equity, the Prefunding money, our Holidays, vacation, pay structure, Even days off and shift bids are all done different at many stations. We are all on separate pages and that works in the best interest of the company not the membership. The ATD benefited from our cuts they got rich and we had to live under the BS they felt we deserved. They pushed the contracts to get them passed by selling on single point each time.

Yes without a doubt the AA/TWU system is flawed. Its flawed because the real decision makers can not be held accountable, they are all appointed and historically they hated the people they supposedly represented and Loved American Airlines.  What Overspeed left out was that appointed International people determined what went on in negotiations, not elected leaders. The elected leaders would be corralled, cajoled or even threatened until the International was able to get a majority to approve what they agreed to as things such a a pension based on their TWU salary and A-5 pass travel were silently slipped into the deal. When all the Fleet Service clerks would show up for an M&R negotiations sessions we knew that Don had plans for a vote. Dons Single Local for Line maintenance failed to include all the Title II guys. Why? Because that left Aircraft Maintenance with just three Reps at the Presidents Council, and just three reps at negotiations, vs the possibility of up to six Fleet service clerks. It also kept 800 guys out of Local 591, which would place Local 591 well above 514 in membership.
 
In the early days of the BK the lawyers said that dumping the pension in the PBGC would satisfy nearly the entire "ask" and that we should not be alarmed since with over $5 billion in cash we would receive 100% of what we had earned up to the date it went to the PBGC, and that the PBGC would be the biggest shareholder in AA. The next day they claimed we had to change that strategy, give more concessions and have the pension frozen instead of terminated, we had to do that because "some TWU members would take a hit but refused to elaborate and determined that like it or not that was the path we were taking. they reminded us that in those negotiations the International had all and final say. So we ended up giving up more to save the Pensions of Jim Little, Bobby Gless, Don Videtich etc etc. Now as we see with the Alliance the intent is to have us all get put into the IAMNPF. Obviously that was the intent all along. If we had been placed in the PBGC I believe thats it, they could not touch our AA pensions and the PBGC would be rolling in money due to AA's skyrocketing stock values. Rolling us into the IAMNPF will likely be a better concession for AA than putting us in the PBGC, its like a Grand Slam for AA. They get to get rid of the pension and all the debt tied to it and they don't have to give the PBGC, or us, any equity for the shortfall in the funding that will simply disappear as we get swept into a pension where we can't retire until at least 65 and can't retire if we plan on still working somewhere else. Under our AA plan we can retire at 55, work somewhere else  and only take a 15% hit against the pension, under the IAMNPF that goes up to a 48% hit, 100% if they catch you working. I've heard some of the IAM/Alliance cheerleaders claim that the IAMNPF would not want our AA funds, first they denied that there was any intent to have us put under the plan, but that fell flat when we reveal the intent letter that stated that was the case and their reasoning was flawed. They claim that the IAMNPF would not want our funds because of the underfunding but the underfunding is based on a plan where we can work and we can retire at 55 with only a 15% penally, 60 with zero penalty, vs the IAM plan where you get hit with a 48% penalty at 55 and a 24% penalty at 60. Most if not all of the "underfunding" would simply disappear if we were rolled into the IAMNPF, along with much of that value of our AA pension that we gave additional concessions in both 2003 and 2012 to preserve. 
 
The AA/TWU structure is completely different than the rest of the TWU. Most Locals in the TWU, outside of the AA system, enjoy a large degree of autonomy and who the members pick really does determine what happens at negotiations. Local 100's approach to negotiations was radically different under Toussaint and Samuelson than it was under the company friendly leadership of of Sonny Hall but in the AA/TWU system who gets elected does not change who sits in high level negotiations, and that where all the deals are really cut. The Association is simply a more transparent version of that, where they won't even try to hide it. 
 
The Association will make things worse for us. It creates a permanent structural division of the membership, not just through Locals under a common Constitution and leadership, but under completely different Collective Bargaining Agents with different Constitutions and leaderships and structures. Under the Association we end up with a collective bargaining agent that does not serve anyone that works under the Collective Bargaining agreement they broker, it has two masters, the President of the TWU and the President of the IAM. I would say that if we are forced into the Association that attempts at reforming the Association are pointless, its hard enough to fix what we have, it will be impossible to fix the Association. We would stand a higher likelihood of success if we follow the path of others at AA who have formed their own organizations with good success.  
 
We should look at our Union Contract as the central reason for the existence of our Union and we need an agent that is their to serve us and ensure that our Contract serves our needs, not those of the Collective Bargaining Agent. Remember the slogan, "We are the Union, TWU, IAM, ETC they are simply the Collective Bargaining Agent, and they work for us, not the other way around, this Association is structured to turn that whole concept around the other way. We aren't treated as members but rather property of the TWU and IAM to be manipulated as it serves the interests of the two Presidents and not whats in the best interests of the people who have to live under the Collective Bargaining agreement. Our Contract is not something for two agents to split. Some say that this is better than having the agents fight each other over us. Well thats ridiculous, there can only be one, if one can't agree to step aside then fight it out. If two guys came courting your daughter because they didn't want to fight over her would you accept them, or run them both out of your house? None of the other Unionized work groups at AA  sought out another Collective bargaining agent, they all formed their own. APA left ALPA and APFA left TWU, both went into BK at the top of the industry and came out that way, along with much higher 401k funding and in the case of the pilots more than triple the equity. None of those groups suffer the indignities we do. While I still believe there is a chance to fix the TWU through further consolidation, so that we at AA are modeled more like the TWU at SWA with the autonomy enjoyed by Locals such as SWA and Local 100, once we are tossed into the Alliance, its over. Change from within is impossible because under the Alliance agreement there is no Authority within, it all lies with the two Presidents. We cease to become members of the Collective bargaining agent that has control of our contract, the Association has no membership, instead our contract is being outsourced to an Association that answers only to the two international Presidents.
 
I know you want AMFA but if AMFA wanted us then they would be sinking a lot of money into this, even to the point of going to their current members and explaining how they can't negotiate higher wages at SWA because of the condition of wages at AA, US, UA and DL so they are committing millions of dollars into organizing and need to change their Constitution. But AMFA is not doing that. They aren't agressivley seeking to organize anybody and have withdrawn into their own little SWA world. A world that reality is slowly encroaching on as they live in denial. They will sit where they are watching their standard of living slowly decline as we drag them down to ours when in fact we should be pulling them up to UPS's. 

 

[Overspeed]

"I know you want AMFA but if AMFA wanted us then they would be sinking a lot of money into this, even to the point of going to their current members and explaining how they can't negotiate higher wages at SWA because of the condition of wages at AA, US, UA and DL. But AMFA is not doing that. They aren't agressivley seeking to organize anybody and have withdrawn into their own little SWA world. A world that reality is slowly encroaching on as they live in denial."
 
Holy crap. The end of the world is upon us. Must not say it..AHHH!!!
 
I agree with Bob

 

[Bob Owens]

"I know you want AMFA but if AMFA wanted us then they would be sinking a lot of money into this, even to the point of going to their current members and explaining how they can't negotiate higher wages at SWA because of the condition of wages at AA, US, UA and DL. But AMFA is not doing that. They aren't agressivley seeking to organize anybody and have withdrawn into their own little SWA world. A world that reality is slowly encroaching on as they live in denial."
 
Holy crap. The end of the world is upon us. Must not say it..AHHH!!!
 
I agree with Bob

So you agree that we all should be earning what UPS earns like we were in 2001? 
 
UPS has not seen big pay increases due to the profits of the package delivery business, they have been able to maintain their standard of living. Just goes to show how much ours has fallen when you consider that 13 years ago we were equal to them. 
 
In the past you have claimed we can't ask for UPS wages because AA doesn't have UPS Profits, well now we do, and with far fewer overall employees. UPS has 318000 employees, so they have more than triple the total number of employees as AA now. 
 
UPS had $46.5 Billion in revenue-$1.3 billion profit 3rd qtr
 
AA with US had $48.68 billion- $1.2 billion profit 3rd qtr
 
When SOC has been consummated we are looking at a $50 billion a year company, larger than UPS. AA expects over $1 billion in synergies, that would put AA above UPS in profits. 
 
Each employee at AA produced nearly triple the revenue, and profit that each employee at UPS generated. 
 
Since 2001 when we both were earning around the same UPS has added mechanics jobs while AA has eliminated over 10,000 mechanics jobs. 
 
UPS is not an airline, they are a package delivery business, what they pay their mechanics has nothing to do with their profits, they pay their mechanics based on the value of what they bring to the table, the same thing that we bring to the table, but thanks to you we give it to AA at a huge discount. 

 

[Chuck Schalk]

 
Hey Overspin,
AMFA didn't cost me my career at NWA ...NWA cost me my career. That company spent millions on a mission long before negotiations even began to break our union with paying off the Bush cronies and the FAA to look the other way and training scabs with the help of IAM and other airlines management who did not want a militant mechanics union on their properties either. If I hadn't witnessed/lived it myself I would never have believed it. Did AMFA make mistakes? You bet! But one thing they did do is bring up the pay substantally for AMT's. There is not one airline AMT today that would be making over 30 bucks and hr if it were not for AMFA and thats a FACT! We raised the bar for the whole industry. Pretty sad when being non union is a better deal for AMT's then being in a union save AMFA. Even AA which is still at the bottom of the heap would be even lower if the TWU hadn't ridden the coattails of our NW AMFA contract. You look at the very bottom of pay and benefits for industry AMT's and IAM or TWU is representing them thats another FACT! I am at big purple and even these guys said they were not going to get a raise then when our AMFA contract came out their pay skyrocketed. Still amazes me that AMT's are still loyal to industrial unions that have destroyed their livelihoods. I guess there will always be sheep who will blindly follow. I would have had 28 yrs with NW now Delta if the strike had not happened and thats unfortunate. But I am making just shy of 110k a yr with NO overtime. Show me an IAM or TWU AMT who makes that other than a union official. I am glad to be out of this lunacy with the industrial unions. Carry on !

 
 
go ahead Overspun tell him what happened with AMFA at Northwest.....oh thats right, you were not there he was!

 

[La Li Lu Le Lo]

I took the liberty of separating the relevant from the fluff.

Yes without a doubt the AA/TWU system is flawed. Its flawed because the real decision makers can not be held accountable, they are all appointed.
 
appointed International people determined what went on in negotiations, not elected leaders.
 
they reminded us that in those negotiations the International had all and final say. (These 3 sentences pretty much say the same thing. This is the real problem with TWU and it CANNOT be fixed, only eliminated)
 
Under our AA plan we can retire at 55, work somewhere else  and only take a 15% hit against the pension, under the IAMNPF that goes up to a 48% hit, 100% if they catch you working.  (In other words they want to use your pension to hold you hostage and exercise control over your life AFTER retirement....)
 
The Association will make things worse for us. It creates a permanent structural division of the membership, not just through Locals under a common Constitution and leadership, but under completely different Collective Bargaining Agents with different Constitutions and leaderships and structures.  (Which should make it painfully obvious to even the most dense of dullards that this is nothing more than a power grab meant to deny the membership any future choice or participation)
 
I would say that if we are forced into the Association that attempts at reforming the Association are pointless, its hard enough to fix what we have, it will be impossible to fix the Association. (It is impossible to fix what you have when appointed people have all the power, YOU JUST SAID THAT; "they reminded us that in those negotiations the International had all and final say".  So which is it Bob is TWU salvageable (it's not) or does the membership have no say so because international has all and final say. Make up your mind.
 
We aren't treated as members but rather property of the TWU and IAM to be manipulated as it serves the interests of the two Presidents and not whats in the best interests of the people who have to live under the Collective Bargaining agreement.  (You telling us that is like saying water is wet and fire burns. It is a throw away sentence that reeks of political maneuvering)
 
Change from within is impossible because under the Alliance agreement there is no Authority within, it all lies with the two Presidents. (How is the TWU any different now? It's not. International has all and final say remember?)
 
We cease to become members of the Collective bargaining agent that has control of our contract, the Association has no membership, instead our contract is being outsourced to an Association that answers only to the two international Presidents. (How has that been any different than the last 15 years (or longer)?)

 

[Overspeed]

Bob,
You make good points in this post about AA's profitability and that it is definitely time to get some of that profit in the memberships' pockets. There are significant hurdles that the membership must cross before negotiations can happen though IMO.

1. Sort out the representation issue with AA and US M&R - who is representing the New AA membership?
2. Bridge the two CBAs in to one JCBA and;
3. Get the membership a great CBA with industry leading pay and benefits

The TWU and IAM need to sort out the representation issue soon before I see AA talking about a JCBA.

 

[Bob Owens]

Bob,
You make good points in this post about AA's profitability and that it is definitely time to get some of that profit in the memberships' pockets. There are significant hurdles that the membership must cross before negotiations can happen though IMO.

1. Sort out the representation issue with AA and US M&R - who is representing the New AA membership?
2. Bridge the two CBAs in to one JCBA and;
3. Get the membership a great CBA with industry leading pay and benefits

The TWU and IAM need to sort out the representation issue soon before I see AA talking about a JCBA.

Well we would be entitled to some of that profit had Jim Little not given it away. When Little brought up the idea of supporting the US takeover he said that we were to get something in return for that support, then once again it turned out that we got nothing, instead in addition to supporting the takeover we had to give up both the "Me Too Clause" and the profit sharing in exchange for an advance of a 4%increase on the chart rate, of what we would be getting anyway. (4% increase only includes chart rate, not premiums so its around a 3.5% increase for M&R, 4% for everyone else in the TWU, but only around 3.5% for mechanics, so for around $2400 we lost profit sharing for at least six years, the Me Too clause and had to support a merger where it brings in thousands of very senior workers. 
 
 
So in reality supporting the takeover cost us money. IIRC you supported that as well. I'd been saying all along that AA would be very profitable and now we are tied to contracts till 2018. (Once again thanks to you) The only leverage we have in the JCBA talks is the synergies where AA expects to save around $2 billion, most of those synergies will be through the flight crews and more efficient fleet utilization, so lets say one quarter of those synergies will be from the ground workers. The IAM already gave AA all the synergies they can from their side, so all thats left to be gained from the ground is approximately 1/8 of that. So we are looking at around $250 million for the entire TWU, so around $125 million for M&R. Right now AA enjoys bottom of the industry pay,  lowest  vacation accrual, Lowest sick time accrual, no real Holidays, no double-time, straight time pay for training, highest out of pocket for medical coverage, no retiree medical, lowest shift differential, Juniority list, and a host of other bottom of the industry language, thanks to you, that potential savings of $125 million would not come close to bringing us up to UPS, not even SWA.  The gains for the company lie in dumping our pension into the IAMNPF where they can eliminate hundreds of millions of liability off their balance sheet and lower what they pay into our pensions because the $2/hr times 2080 hours is less than the 5.5% on all wages earned. By dumping us in the IAMNPF they effectively get full value of the synergies for free. Thanks to you (and the IAM for agreeing to a concessionary deal with a profitable company) our hands are tied as far as making any real gains until 2018, the best we can do using conventional tactics, and not tactics that you have consistently spoken against, since these are not section six negotiations and both the IAM and TWU have deals in place till 2018 would be to have a zero cost contract where we give up pension value, which we gave industry leading concessions in both 2003 and 2012 to preserve (over $200,000 out of pocket for each and every mechanic in concessions) , to remain at the bottom of the industry, just not as deep. The only way for us to make real gains would be for the guys to produce consistent with their compensation so that the company loses more money than they are saving due to delays and cancellations that are driven by the low morale and a lack of motivation to problem solve by our members. In other words the members have to give AA exactly what AA is giving them (the least they possibly can, bottom of the industry) and let the place fall apart so losses exceed savings. Just do exactly what they tell you to do, no more, no less. The fact is this would put more money in their pockets through overtime and since we don't get profit sharing (and the company has refused to even discuss your precious "gain sharing")  there really is zero incentive to do anything but the bare minimum. 
 
 
I do agree the issue of representation needs to be sorted out, the IAM needs to back out and forget about sucking us into that black hole pension of theirs, if their current members want to stay in the IAMNPF I'm ok with that but I want no part of it. No great rush to get there because there is no pot of gold waiting for us. The IAM screwed the whole profession by agreeing to their concessionary deal so our mid term wage adjustment windfall will not amount to much, the IAM deal cut the legs out from under the IBT at UAL and allowed Delta to give smaller increases than they otherwise would have had to). From what I hear the pilots and flight attendants, where the company had the most to gain as far as synergies didn't make big gains, sure they may be "industry leading" by the loose definition but they were already pretty much there to begin with. End result in both cases is the company made out with the lions share of the gains from the deals. 

 

[Bob Owens]

I took the liberty of separating the relevant from the fluff.

 Post it correctly and I will respond. 

 

[La Li Lu Le Lo]

 Post it correctly and I will respond. 

I requested no response.. If you want to respond then do so. If not then don't.

 

[Bob Owens]

Normally a question mark is an indication that a response is requested.

 

[Slopoke]

 
I know you want AMFA but if AMFA wanted us then they would be sinking a lot of money into this, even to the point of going to their current members and explaining how they can't negotiate higher wages at SWA because of the condition of wages at AA, US, UA and DL so they are committing millions of dollars into organizing and need to change their Constitution. But AMFA is not doing that. They aren't agressivley seeking to organize anybody and have withdrawn into their own little SWA world. A world that reality is slowly encroaching on as they live in denial. They will sit where they are watching their standard of living slowly decline as we drag them down to ours when in fact we should be pulling them up to UPS's. 

 
I contacted AMFA many months ago and spoke to the National Director, asking why they were not being more agressive in their push at AA. I was told that he could not spend money that is dues from their current members and would have to ask them permission to use their money to get us into AMFA. Wheather what he said is true of not, I don't know, but I got it directly from the horses mouth.
 
I guess with the lack of any major organizing from the AMFA national, we are not that important, and they are not going to spend the money to get us into their union. I'm still hoping they do and soon. If it does not happen this time, I doubt the opportunity will come again.

 

[Rogallo]

 
I contacted AMFA many months ago and spoke to the National Director, asking why they were not being more agressive in their push at AA. I was told that he could not spend money that is dues from their current members and would have to ask them permission to use their money to get us into AMFA. Wheather what he said is true of not, I don't know, but I got it directly from the horses mouth.

 
What a concept!!

 

[Overspeed]

Bob,
Thanks for pointing out your opinion again on how we got here. Still doesn't change the fact of how things get better going forward. Need to stop wallowing in the past.

 

[Vortilon]

Bob,
Thanks for pointing out your opinion again on how we got here. Still doesn't change the fact of how things get better going forward. Need to stop wallowing in the past.

How does that quote go, something like "those who fail to learn from history, are doomed to repeat the same mistakes".  So, historically speaking, the TWU has failed the AA AMTs "big time"!  Let's learn from our history, the TWU sucks.