IT'S TIME FOR NAME THAT FAMOUS TWU QUOTE

[MetalMover]

Dave I have a solution...don't go with AMFA. Losing 80% of your membership's jobs in less than five years is not winning even if you use Charlie Sheen's version of winning.
 
bigjets,
It's a simple fact that when a company shrinks so does it's workforce. Closing all those stations and bases makes sense when the airline shrank. Did NW shrink when it closed all of its line and base locations except for DTW and MSP? Barely. Did AS shrink when it closed it's overhaul base in OAK? No in fact they have been wildly profitable and growing. Did UA shrink when it shipped all but three lines of it's airframe overhaul out? Yes a little but nowhere near what was necessary. Blame whomever you want and join AMFA...Dougie will love you for it.

Did AFW close under the TWU's watch? Did Tulsa shrink under the TWU's watch? The line is on its way to majority over OH....With or without AMFA, your once powerful voting bloc is shrinking before your beady eyes. Title 1's numbers were once well over 12000....Now around mid 7000's....Again under the TWU's watchful eye.....But I guess it was AMFA's fault, eh?

 

[Realityck]

"...I was close to the negotiations that resulted, in 1983, in one of the earliest realization of the two-tier system."

 
So was I:                        1983 CONTRACT
 
 
After deregulation, the APA leadership had it's first chance to show their negotiating skills and determination. With Mr. Seham's counsel and help, they created the most anti-union “B Scale” ever devised. The A-Scale pilots' pay would be subsidized by the B-Scale pilots, or, as Mr. Seham said, the A-Scale pilots kept their present level of-pay and benefits "all at the cost of reduced salaries for newly-hired pilots." Essentially, the negotiators and Mr. Seham agreed that professional pilots at American Airlines were worth less than half of their current wages. Next came the classic management tactic of "divide and conquer” in the form of Supplement B, written by Mr. Seham. Basically, Supplement B stipulates that A-Scale and B-Scale pilots shall never be equal. Mr. Seham drafted management’s dream come true - a permanently divided union at a time the Company was under no financial difficulty.
 
 
 
The B-Scale Plague
 
American Airlines adopted the benchmark B-scale in 1983, permanently reducing pay for newly hired pilots by 50 percent. In fact, under the AA system—negotiated while the Seham firm sat on the labor side of the table—pay rates and pensions for new employees would never merge with those of then-current employees.
 
Martin Seham wrote proudly of this accomplishment in Cleared for Takeoff: Airline Labor Relations Since Deregulation.
 
As general counsel to the Allied Pilots Association (APA), the independent certified representative of the American Airlines pilots, I was close to the negotiations that resulted, in 1983, in the earliest realization of the two-tier system. APA was not faced with an insolvent or failing carrier; it was, however, forced to deal with an economic environment that had changed dramatically because of the effects of deregulation and was, by virtue of its independence, mandated to reach an agreement consistent with the needs and objectives of its constituency. — Martin C. Seham
 
Although B-scales were not a new concept, their initial format was unique to the airline industry. Following American’s lead, other airlines began to demand similar packages—forcing the entire airline labor movement into a new era of concessions. Good for management; bad for pilots, flight attendants, mechanics, and all of the airline industry’s workers.
 
While ALPA pilots were forced to deal with this blight brought to the industry by APA and the Sehams, not one ALPA pilot group accepted a non-merging two-tier scale. The clearest example of this was the ALPA strike at United in June 1985, when the pilots refused to agree to a non-merging two-tier pay scale.
                                                                       ALLIED PILOTS ASSOCIATION
 
                                                                                                                                                    December 14,1992

 

[La Li Lu Le Lo]

 instead looking forward to 5 MORE years of this.

Just in time for more financial woes.........
 
Believe this if nothing else. American Airlines will "schedule" financial issues right about contract time.
 
Watch and see.

 

[ThirdSeatHero]

Dave I have a solution...don't go with AMFA. Losing 80% of your membership's jobs in less than five years is not winning even if you use Charlie Sheen's version of winning. And your quote, "Repeating the same mistakes and expecting a different results is the definition of insanity," is perfect. All those AMTs that keep thinking the next time AMFA gets a major carrier they will be on top is definitely insanity.
 
bigjets,
It's a simple fact that when a company shrinks so does it's workforce. Closing all those stations and bases makes sense when the airline shrank. Did NW shrink when it closed all of its line and base locations except for DTW and MSP? Barely. Did AS shrink when it closed it's overhaul base in OAK? No in fact they have been wildly profitable and growing. Did UA shrink when it shipped all but three lines of it's airframe overhaul out? Yes a little but nowhere near what was necessary. Blame whomever you want and join AMFA...Dougie will love you for it.
 
And DL isn't union so which contract are you referring too? UA is still negotiating with the IBT.

 
"...Did UA shrink when it shipped all but three lines of it's airframe overhaul out? Yes a little but nowhere near what was necessary...."
 
Under bankruptcy UAL lost aprox 25% of our total headcount - In maintenance we lost over 7,000 mechanics, more than half our number, yet according to you we lost .....
 
"...a little but nowhere near what was necessary...."
 
And once again you flaunt your complete ignorance on what actually happened at UAL.

 

[ThirdSeatHero]

The B-Scale Plague
 
Although B-scales were not a new concept, their initial format was unique to the airline industry. Following American’s lead, other airlines began to demand similar packages—forcing the entire airline labor movement into a new era of concessions. Good for management; bad for pilots, flight attendants, mechanics, and all of the airline industry’s workers.
 

 
 
Oh, so the  ALLIED PILOTS ASSOCIATION at AA is responsible for the "B" scale - Good to know.

 

[Overspeed]

ThirdSeatHero,
The question on the table was about shutting down MCI, AFW, and several other line stations while still maintaining significantly more AO work in-house. Under the IAM and AMFA, UA lost far more AO work than AA did in BK. So according to the fact that UA went to only three AO lines with a similarly sized fleet yes UA lost far more jobs than under comparable conditions at AA.
 
And read M. Seham's words again. B-scales have been around many industries in different formats. The fact is that a former AMFA attorney is bragging about how he won a B-scale at AA with the APA when there was no threat of strike or BK.
 
So much for professional negotiators.

 

[Real tired]

More from the IAM:
 
"Overtime bans traditionally do not work."
 
"We don't want to hurt the company too much."

 

[Bob Owens]

MCI AFW SNA DTW MSP CLE etc etc, closed under the TWU how many mechs have been laidoff under TWU? How many OSMs ? In 2004 we were already a year into the mother of all concessions which lead to bankruptcy anyway.

Don't ruin a good thread with your non sense.

There are around 6100 in Tile 1 once you pull out cleaners and OSMs. AA has around 627 aircraft. So our ratio of mechanics per aircraft in now around 9 per aircraft, if you only counted A&P mechanics my guess it would be below 8, so not much more than competitors that get paid better and have better benefits. There are 3355 A&P Line mechanics, so that comes out to 5.3 line mechanics per aircraft. Considering that we have ETOPS operations and multiple fleet types the gap between AA and SWA is very close. 

 

[ThirdSeatHero]

ThirdSeatHero,
The question on the table was about shutting down MCI, AFW, and several other line stations while still maintaining significantly more AO work in-house. Under the IAM and AMFA, UA lost far more AO work than AA did in BK. So according to the fact that UA went to only three AO lines with a similarly sized fleet yes UA lost far more jobs than under comparable conditions at AA.
 
And read M. Seham's words again. B-scales have been around many industries in different formats. The fact is that a former AMFA attorney is bragging about how he won a B-scale at AA with the APA when there was no threat of strike or BK.
 
So much for professional negotiators.

 
So lets see ....
 
First you say this ....
 
"...Did UA shrink when it shipped all but three lines of it's airframe overhaul out? Yes a little but nowhere near what was necessary...."
 
Then you say this ...
 
"...So according to the fact that UA went to only three AO lines with a similarly sized fleet yes UA lost far more jobs than under comparable conditions at AA..."
 
 
So is it "a little but nowhere near"  or "far more"? 
 
As your glaring contradiction clearly shows, you're just making this up as you go.
 
 
As for B-scales, spare me your tired attempts at another failed anti-AMFA slight.  Seham didn't negotiate the language all by himself nor did he have ANY say in its passage. The pilots of that APA generation obviously thought it was fair at the time because THEY voted it in.  Nice try.

 

[Overspeed]

ThirdSeatHero,
Believe what you want and so will I. Based on your position everything has been awesome at UA so great job AMFA. My congratulations to you.
 
AA has significantly reduced the aircraft it has in overhaul by adding more than 150 737-800s, 50 319/321s, and retiring 757s and MD80s at a record pace. AA will soon be well under 10 years average fleet age. We all know CFMs and V2500s require far less overhaul visits than JT8Ds and RB211s. I for one am not surprised that AA has reduced overhaul AMTs because of new aircraft. It isn't because of the contract. UA's was because of the contract.
 
Seham brags about being a major part of bringing in the B scale. One of the founding fathers of AMFA.

 

[Overspeed]

TSH,
I don't make up the facts...they speak for themselves
 
http://web.mit.edu/airlinedata/www/2013%2012%20Month%20Documents/Employees%20and%20Productivity/MX/Average%20In%20House%20Maintenance%20Employees%20per%20Aircraft.htm

 

[ThirdSeatHero]

ThirdSeatHero,
Believe what you want and so will I. Based on your position everything has been awesome at UA so great job AMFA. My congratulations to you.
 
AA has significantly reduced the aircraft it has in overhaul by adding more than 150 737-800s, 50 319/321s, and retiring 757s and MD80s at a record pace. AA will soon be well under 10 years average fleet age. We all know CFMs and V2500s require far less overhaul visits than JT8Ds and RB211s. I for one am not surprised that AA has reduced overhaul AMTs because of new aircraft. It isn't because of the contract. UA's was because of the contract.
 
Seham brags about being a major part of bringing in the B scale. One of the founding fathers of AMFA.

 
Believe what I want to believe??? Thanks for the laugh!!!  :-D
 
I'm just pointing out that you're the one making contradictory statements - did we lose too many jobs or not enough?
 
 
Again - trying to use Seham and the B-scale as some sort of AMFA slight is laughable, and goes to show just how desperate you are.  Like I said, Seham didn't negotiate the language all by himself nor did he have ANY say in its passage.
 
 
Oh and BTW ... your obscure data link doesn't change the fact that you made contradictory statements. - And THAT definitely speaks for itself.

 

[Overspeed]

And like I said , M Seham brags about being a part of getting a B scale in at the APA. Facts are facts.
 
So much for professional negotiators
 
"As general counsel to the Allied Pilots Association (APA), the independent certified representative of the American Airlines pilots, I was close to the negotiations that resulted, in 1983, in one of the earliest realization of the two-tier system. APA was not faced with an insolvent or failing carrier; it was, however, forced to deal with an economic environment that had changed dramatically because of the effects of deregulation and was, by virtue of its independence, mandated to reach an agreement consistent with the needs and objectives of its constituency." — Martin C. Seham
 
MIT ADP is not an obscure reference and also the data is pulled from a database the is filed with the BTS.

 

[ThirdSeatHero]

And like I said , M Seham brags about being a part of getting a B scale in at the APA. Facts are facts.
 
So much for professional negotiators
 
"As general counsel to the Allied Pilots Association (APA), the independent certified representative of the American Airlines pilots, I was close to the negotiations that resulted, in 1983, in one of the earliest realization of the two-tier system. APA was not faced with an insolvent or failing carrier; it was, however, forced to deal with an economic environment that had changed dramatically because of the effects of deregulation and was, by virtue of its independence, mandated to reach an agreement consistent with the needs and objectives of its constituency." — Martin C. Seham
 
MIT ADP is not an obscure reference and also the data is pulled from a database the is filed with the BTS.

 
Wow, things must be getting really desperate over TWU way for you to continue to grasp at this weak crap - Seham did not come up with the B-scale all on his own, Seham did not ratify an agreement with it, he couldn't even vote.  APA pilots at that time were obviously okay with the language so as much as you'd like to pin it on Seham sorry APA owns it.
 
As far as your link goes, no matter where its from, it still doesn't change the fact that YOU-MADE-CONTRADICTORY-STATEMENTS - Facts are facts.

 

[Overspeed]

Yes they are. Some light reading.
 
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/26/business/yourmoney/26lou.html?pagewanted=print&_r=0
 
http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2005/02/ual-f08.html
 
And the Seham law firm has a history of playing all sides. They get richer and we all get poorer. When they get kicked out for poor performance they start and "independent" union like USAPA, AICA, etc...
 
Love how the Sehams also help out management break unions. How does this play in to should we get AMFA? Because AMFA has been married to the Seham legacy of destroying thousands of careers.