It's official!

[AdAstraPerAspera]

Forgive me if I missed this in the previous 9 pages...but is there a feeling of this is a PMUS vs PMAA thing?  Did one group want this and the other didn't?

 
Not at all, its a smart vs. dumb thing. The smart FAs of both airlines voted yes. The dumb ones didn't.

 

[AdAstraPerAspera]

but you can't admit that I had a better pulse of the issues that mattered to AA FAs than APFA did? - or else they thought they could ignore those issues

doesn't matter whether you admit it or not. I understood the situation and the case you laid out but I don't vote.

and I still wish you well extricating yourself and your career from this situation.

 
If you would like me to admit I underestimated the importance of a profit sharing check to (some of the) workgroup that hadn't received one in over a decade, I'm happy to oblige you. But as Terry Maxon demonstrated, there may be several (dumb) reasons for voting against the TA, PS was only one of them. I hardly believe it was what killed the thing.

 

[WorldTraveler]

it was voted down in AA bases, more heavily by int'l, and with MIA and NYC being the most negative.
overall, US bases approved it.
http://aviationblog.dallasnews.com/2014/11/american-airlines-flight-attendants-opposed-new-contract-while-us-airways-flight-attendants-voted-in-favor.html/

note that the STL base - former TW - had the highest percentage of no votes. PHX (US) had the highest percentage of yes votes.

 

[jimntx]

There are probably many more who voted NO because of the Hard40 than voted NO because of the lack of profit sharing.  The flight attendants who want the job to be a very part-time, occasional, when I have nothing else to do kind of thing are legion.

 

[Hatu]

APFA: Well meet with American Airlines next week, but it wont be negotiations

The Association of Professional Flight Attendants put out this hotline Tuesday night, and seems to be designed to squelch any rumors that the union and American Airlines will reopen contract talks in advance of binding arbitration in December:

The company has responded to APFAs request for mediation and has agreed to meet. The parties are in the process of scheduling meetings for next week. The company has made clear that mediation will be restricted to narrowing the issues to be presented in arbitration and determining the arbitration protocol.

http://aviationblog.dallasnews.com/2014/11/apfa-well-meet-with-american-airlines-next-week-but-it-wont-be-negotiations.html/

 

[WorldTraveler]

There are probably many more who voted NO because of the Hard40 than voted NO because of the lack of profit sharing.  The flight attendants who want the job to be a very part-time, occasional, when I have nothing else to do kind of thing are legion.

I would agree with that Jim.

but it took just 16 votes to change the deal. No reason can be brushed off as insignificant.

and given that DL has made no bones at throwing HUGE amounts of money at its FAs which anyone who even closely follows labor relations in the airline industry can't ignore, it is impossible for any union or airline to claim that the are offering "industry leading" without accocunting for the very large amounts of profit sharing that DL employees are getting. For DL FAs, that profit sharing is easily worth $250 million per year, far in excess of what AA and APFA said they "baked into" the TA.

AA FAs knew full well that the contract wasn't industry-leading when that much profit sharing was being handed out at DL.

and the bigger lesson for AA's other unions is whether they go toe to toe with Parker on profit sharing or risk the same results as APFA. the 40 hour rule or similar provisions won't matter near as much for other workgroups but profit sharing absolutely will.

there is simply no way to match DL's total compensation levels without including very large levels of profit sharing and not make some flawed assumption that it will disappear in a couple years.

 

[Slopoke]

There are probably many more who voted NO because of the Hard40 than voted NO because of the lack of profit sharing.  The flight attendants who want the job to be a very part-time, occasional, when I have nothing else to do kind of thing are legion.

 
 
I spoke to a FA yesterday and that was a big reason for her to vote no.

 

[bigjets]

I spoke to a FA yesterday and that was a big reason for her to vote no.

Wasn't the hard 40 taken out of TA ?

 

[700UW]

http://aviationblog.dallasnews.com/2014/11/apfa-well-meet-with-american-airlines-next-week-but-it-wont-be-negotiations.html/
 

APFA: We’ll meet with American Airlines next week, but it won’t be negotiations

 

[usfliboi]

They will agree to keep the agreement in tack...preventing it from going to arbitration...this will save face for both company and apfa....the agreement will then be imposed if both agree not to send it back for a vote...just my opinion..in the mean time...apfa has opened a huge door for afa to rally the troops .....

 

[bigjets]

They will agree to keep the agreement in tack...preventing it from going to arbitration...this will save face for both company and apfa....the agreement will then be imposed if both agree not to send it back for a vote...just my opinion..in the mean time...apfa has opened a huge door for afa to rally the troops .....

That would be nice if the company saves FAs from themselves, I bet the contract would be voted in overwhelmingly if given a second chance, from what I hear from the FAs who actually fly.

 

[usfliboi]

Who knows....but I think it's in both interest to sweep this under the rug...now keeping apfa on property is another story.....

 

[boston]

I'd love the TA to stay intact. However, there will never ever be one iota of credibility left. For some reason my co-workers seem to think they are the employer, not to mention the watch dogs of who won't get anymore than them. I don't understand the culture or upbringing if those that are more concerned with everybody else and lose the ball in their furry.
Is to bad that so many fa's will live with the after math of Jan.1991, and 2003.

 

[swamt]

There are probably many more who voted NO because of the Hard40 than voted NO because of the lack of profit sharing.  The flight attendants who want the job to be a very part-time, occasional, when I have nothing else to do kind of thing are legion.

Jim I gotta ask.  Is it really an industry leading contract overall?  Does it beat out UAL? DAL? and SWA? Maybe even JBlue?  Even we as mechanics are not industry leading as UPS and FedEx are above us. Now if you put passenger airline in the title, then we are considered industry leading.  But UPS and FedEx mechanics do the same job we do therefore they are in our industry.  Bad part for you F/A's is the two cargo airliners do not have F/A's for you guys to compare.  Could you or anyone from AA please explain the "industry leading" contract definition please...

 

[Bob Owens]

Market aggregate is expected to be a snapshot of a point in time (like the present).  It's not supposed to try to estimate what might happen a year or two down the road.  Which suits me just fine.  It's all well and good to guess what might happen in the airline bidness, but I think the events just since 9/11/2001 would tell any sensible soul that there is no predicting what will or will not happen in this crazy business.  The TA that was just voted down would have given me an immediate $7+/hr raise, and raises each year for the next 5 years.  In addition, since I fly #1 most of the time, I would have received an additional $2.50/hr for each hour flown as #1.  Having an almost $10/hr raise in my pocket is preferable to what might happen.  Might happen does not spend well at Kroger's.
 
Oh, and Bob give it a rest with the profit sharing please.  The average flight attendant is not interested.  Not only is there absolutely no way to plan for how much will be shared (companies do have a history of cooking the profit sharing books), but it has to be in your pocket before it is of any use to you.  Those of us whose income varies by as much as 20-50% up or down from one month to the next just can't budget on "maybe the profit sharing will be higher next month."   I have a friend who is sole support for her 3 children.  She got rid of her deadbeat 4th child (DBA, her ex-husband).  On our line months she flew 140-150 hours.  I don't even know how you get that much time on your schedule without creating an illegality, and I'm a whiz at double trip-trading.  On our reserve months it was almost impossible to pick up extra flying; so, she worked as a cocktail waitress to try to make up the slack.  On her reserve months (every other month for the first 2 years and 3 months/year from then until now), her household income dropped something like 50% from her line months.  No one should have to work that hard just to put a roof over her head and her childrens' heads.  She has only a high school education; so, flight attendant is one of the best jobs she could have.
 
Oh, and unless you're prepared to prove your psychic abilities, don't try to tell me you knew two years ago when negotiations started that we would make billion dollar profits two quarters in a row.  Two years ago, I had my doubts if we were even going to be in business by this year.
 
If I worked at WN, I might feel differently.  But, they have a history of profit-making quarters--to be exact, 17 straight years without a losing quarter.  If we had that kind of financial history, i might consider waiting for profit sharing at the end of the quarter.

Check the threads, two years ago, or thereabouts,  I put on these threads that the AA lawyers had let out in their opening statement in court that they expected to be making $2.8 billion a year in profits, thats as a stand alone carrier without USAIR and their $2 billion in synergies.  More specifically he stated that we would be getting back every penny of our concessions with the profit sharing and all I had to do was plug in the numbers. Not psychic, just was there when they said it and after 30 years in this industry have seen the cycle a few times. Did you forget what happened between 1995 and 2000? 
 
How much planning can you do with three years of 1% increases other than planning on cutting your standard of living? So you get a front end loaded contract but an excessively long one. One that will last just long enough for the next down cycle to start. Your peers at UAL are in negotiations and this will bring your hourly wage slightly over theirs but with less vacation and pretty much nothing for the next four years, and increases to your medical will probably wipe out the increased wage. (If they are giving the US FAs $3000 to make up for the medical that comes out to around $1.50 an hour, so in other words they figure your new medical plan will cost them around $1.50 a hour more than what they are paying now. In the meantime AA will be raking in so much money they won't know what to do with it.
 
As far as the unpredictability of the industry and events like 9-11. Be sensible and not emotional, capacity had already exceeded demand prior to 9-11. Think about it, add up all the Passengers that died on the four Airplanes that terrible day and you have one full 767.  Airliners flying at 25% capacity and super cheap fares will lose a lot of money real fast. 9-11 was an event they capitalized on to win concessions beyond their wildest dreams. But obviously you are a worrier, you actually believed that the Bankruptcy was really driven out of necessity rather than greed. You obviously don't want to take any chances either, and would rather settle for a long term contract that will leave your standard of living even lower than it is today by the time it becomes amendable in the meantime AA will have four years of multibillion profit earning years behind them and all the other parties will have upped their takes, airports like JFK will be charging $10,000 landing fees, banks will be reaping billions in interest and fees etc etc and by the time you guys are ready to enter negotiations they will be ready to start crying poverty again. This isn't being psychic, its see whats happened time and time again in this industry.