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Ok, so that means he can award them a contract at the current market aggregate rate that becomes amendable in 2016. (CO becomes amendable next month and UAL becomes amendable in 2016) So thier hourly rate would be slightly lower than the TA but with profit sharing and only two years instead of five before they renegotiate. He cant make the term longer than that because he has no way of predicting what the "market aggregate" for the term covered that he cant go above, (or, I assume, below) will be and its an unrealistic assumption to take when carriers are reporting record profits that an agreement that extends beyond those dates can accurately reflect the intent of the union when they signed the agreement for binding arbitration. He can only work with a known, anything beyond 2016 is unwritten. Two year contract have been the norm in this industry for most of its existence, it would be nice to see them return.jimntx said:
I'd take the ability to escape a 6 yr contract forged in BK two years earlier than extend it by nearly two years without profit sharing.
Scary but once again Overspeed and I are in agreement that the APFA should challenge the values the company is putting on things. He didn't feel that way with TWU negotiations and supported relying on an Economist from a Union busting firm, who has since gone to SWA management, but as he says, thats in the past.
SparrowHawk
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- Nov 30, 2009
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Way back when I was a real dumb ass as a customer I saw the hourly rates that F/A's earn and I thought to myself "WOW, $41/hour WTF you complaining about".
Then as I worked my way up to Chairman's Preferred I began my informal MBA program taught to me by the Flight Attendants. I learned what "Block Time" is, ACARS, Dead Head and all manner of unique and specific airline lingo.
In all of my travels and experiences I've never seen a work group get the shaft on a consistent and ongoing basis as I have F/A's. Once I learned what the real income was I thought who would take such a job. First you have the industry itself. As a whole the industry sucks. When you get folks with a full A & P Licence that can make more fixing my Audi TT you have a built in system fault with lives at stake. Next, between the FAA, Company & Union you have built in conflicting agendas and it's the customer and worker that loses out in the end.
Given the number of Bankruptcies and closures, IMO the only thing a worker can do is get it while they can by any means necessary. Trust me the customer could give two sh*ts less and the company even less. To the company you're equipment. A serving cart, trash bag, coffee percolator. When you make to much noise or break down they want to just get a new one.
Get all you can TODAY. There is no guarantee for tomorrow..
Then as I worked my way up to Chairman's Preferred I began my informal MBA program taught to me by the Flight Attendants. I learned what "Block Time" is, ACARS, Dead Head and all manner of unique and specific airline lingo.
In all of my travels and experiences I've never seen a work group get the shaft on a consistent and ongoing basis as I have F/A's. Once I learned what the real income was I thought who would take such a job. First you have the industry itself. As a whole the industry sucks. When you get folks with a full A & P Licence that can make more fixing my Audi TT you have a built in system fault with lives at stake. Next, between the FAA, Company & Union you have built in conflicting agendas and it's the customer and worker that loses out in the end.
Given the number of Bankruptcies and closures, IMO the only thing a worker can do is get it while they can by any means necessary. Trust me the customer could give two sh*ts less and the company even less. To the company you're equipment. A serving cart, trash bag, coffee percolator. When you make to much noise or break down they want to just get a new one.
Get all you can TODAY. There is no guarantee for tomorrow..
jimntx
Veteran
Thank you, Sparrowhawk. We have a problem with recruits as well about that $41/hr. New hires start at something like $18/hr. However, they are only guaranteed 70 hours/month. (75 on reserve months, I think.) Do the math. If a new hire flies just their guaranteed hours and does not pick up any extra flying, their monthly gross will be $1260! Try as they may, some never make it off probation because they just can't lower their living standard enough to live within their means. And, I don't blame them. It's so tacky in there! 
I know some US Airways flight attendants who know who you are. They all commented about what a great guy you are.
I know some US Airways flight attendants who know who you are. They all commented about what a great guy you are.
jimntx
Veteran
Market aggregate is expected to be a snapshot of a point in time (like the present). It's not supposed to try to estimate what might happen a year or two down the road. Which suits me just fine. It's all well and good to guess what might happen in the airline bidness, but I think the events just since 9/11/2001 would tell any sensible soul that there is no predicting what will or will not happen in this crazy business. The TA that was just voted down would have given me an immediate $7+/hr raise, and raises each year for the next 5 years. In addition, since I fly #1 most of the time, I would have received an additional $2.50/hr for each hour flown as #1. Having an almost $10/hr raise in my pocket is preferable to what might happen. Might happen does not spend well at Kroger's.
Oh, and Bob give it a rest with the profit sharing please. The average flight attendant is not interested. Not only is there absolutely no way to plan for how much will be shared (companies do have a history of cooking the profit sharing books), but it has to be in your pocket before it is of any use to you. Those of us whose income varies by as much as 20-50% up or down from one month to the next just can't budget on "maybe the profit sharing will be higher next month." I have a friend who is sole support for her 3 children. She got rid of her deadbeat 4th child (DBA, her ex-husband). On our line months she flew 140-150 hours. I don't even know how you get that much time on your schedule without creating an illegality, and I'm a whiz at double trip-trading. On our reserve months it was almost impossible to pick up extra flying; so, she worked as a cocktail waitress to try to make up the slack. On her reserve months (every other month for the first 2 years and 3 months/year from then until now), her household income dropped something like 50% from her line months. No one should have to work that hard just to put a roof over her head and her childrens' heads. She has only a high school education; so, flight attendant is one of the best jobs she could have.
Oh, and unless you're prepared to prove your psychic abilities, don't try to tell me you knew two years ago when negotiations started that we would make billion dollar profits two quarters in a row. Two years ago, I had my doubts if we were even going to be in business by this year.
If I worked at WN, I might feel differently. But, they have a history of profit-making quarters--to be exact, 17 straight years without a losing quarter. If we had that kind of financial history, i might consider waiting for profit sharing at the end of the quarter.
Oh, and Bob give it a rest with the profit sharing please. The average flight attendant is not interested. Not only is there absolutely no way to plan for how much will be shared (companies do have a history of cooking the profit sharing books), but it has to be in your pocket before it is of any use to you. Those of us whose income varies by as much as 20-50% up or down from one month to the next just can't budget on "maybe the profit sharing will be higher next month." I have a friend who is sole support for her 3 children. She got rid of her deadbeat 4th child (DBA, her ex-husband). On our line months she flew 140-150 hours. I don't even know how you get that much time on your schedule without creating an illegality, and I'm a whiz at double trip-trading. On our reserve months it was almost impossible to pick up extra flying; so, she worked as a cocktail waitress to try to make up the slack. On her reserve months (every other month for the first 2 years and 3 months/year from then until now), her household income dropped something like 50% from her line months. No one should have to work that hard just to put a roof over her head and her childrens' heads. She has only a high school education; so, flight attendant is one of the best jobs she could have.
Oh, and unless you're prepared to prove your psychic abilities, don't try to tell me you knew two years ago when negotiations started that we would make billion dollar profits two quarters in a row. Two years ago, I had my doubts if we were even going to be in business by this year.
If I worked at WN, I might feel differently. But, they have a history of profit-making quarters--to be exact, 17 straight years without a losing quarter. If we had that kind of financial history, i might consider waiting for profit sharing at the end of the quarter.
WorldTraveler
Corn Field
- Dec 5, 2003
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and yet Jim there are plenty of AA FAs who don't share your view of profit sharing.
AA has distributed it faithfully for years.
DL might have been a little late to the game but they are delivering it in spades.
when AA crows about its industry leading net profits while DL is "burdened" with paying out $350 million in profit sharing just for one quarter, AA FAs aren't stupid enough to buy APFA's line that they accounted for industry profit sharing in the proposed contract.
DL FAs are receiving 15% of their salary in profit sharing this year; AA FAs know full well they could be far better compensated if they received that kind of profit sharing as well.
DL employees will top $1 BILLION in profit sharing this year for a post=bankruptcy total that is somewhere north of $4 billion. that is hardly an inconsequential or fleeting amount of money. AA FAs know better than to try to minimize the value of profit sharing in the industry and you should be ashamed of yourself for buying Parker's sales job hook, line, and sinker.
To buy the nonsense that Parker doesn't think profit sharing is a good way to compensate employees is to fall for another mgmt. lie that lets AA avoid hundreds of millions of dollars in additional pay compared to what DL is paying its FAs.
the industry waited 35 years to generate these kinds of profits. to think that AA FAs should settle for 1/4 of the levels that other carriers in profit sharing just simply won't fly with AA FAs.
AA has distributed it faithfully for years.
DL might have been a little late to the game but they are delivering it in spades.
when AA crows about its industry leading net profits while DL is "burdened" with paying out $350 million in profit sharing just for one quarter, AA FAs aren't stupid enough to buy APFA's line that they accounted for industry profit sharing in the proposed contract.
DL FAs are receiving 15% of their salary in profit sharing this year; AA FAs know full well they could be far better compensated if they received that kind of profit sharing as well.
DL employees will top $1 BILLION in profit sharing this year for a post=bankruptcy total that is somewhere north of $4 billion. that is hardly an inconsequential or fleeting amount of money. AA FAs know better than to try to minimize the value of profit sharing in the industry and you should be ashamed of yourself for buying Parker's sales job hook, line, and sinker.
To buy the nonsense that Parker doesn't think profit sharing is a good way to compensate employees is to fall for another mgmt. lie that lets AA avoid hundreds of millions of dollars in additional pay compared to what DL is paying its FAs.
the industry waited 35 years to generate these kinds of profits. to think that AA FAs should settle for 1/4 of the levels that other carriers in profit sharing just simply won't fly with AA FAs.
kirkpatrick
Veteran
jimntx said:
WorldTraveler
Corn Field
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correction:
WorldTraveler said:
Profit sharing was in the LBFO during AAs BK offer, the FAs and other unionized groups decided that it was better to have guaranteed pay versus conditional pay.
As others have posted:
1. You cannot base a loan or mortgage off of profit sharing incentive.
2. You are taxed at a much higher rate, therefore it is not the true valuation as far as take home pay.
3. AA Management is not willing to negotiate a profit sharing incentive.
As others have posted:
1. You cannot base a loan or mortgage off of profit sharing incentive.
2. You are taxed at a much higher rate, therefore it is not the true valuation as far as take home pay.
3. AA Management is not willing to negotiate a profit sharing incentive.
jimntx
Veteran
True, but you were sleeping in your own bed each night, you had pretty regular hours, and you weren't ever forced to eat in mediocre, over-priced hotel restaurants. And, don't take this as a rebuke. The furlough was wrong. The whole deal with all of you was wrong. I'm just saying that $1260 will go farther at home than it will on the road.kirkpatrick said:
IMO, that's a poor way to communicate the amount - makes it seem like the FAs don't make as much in W-2 wages and must rely on profit sharing to make up the difference.WorldTraveler said:
What you should say is that "the profit sharing expected by DL employees will be equal to an additional 15% of their W-2 wages, or almost seven weeks additional pay on top of their regular wages."
IMO, the AA employees threw away a tremendous opportunity when the pilots gave back 2/3 of the company's 15% profit sharing offer, and the other workgroups lost 2/3 of their 15% profit sharing because of the "me-too" provisions of the bankruptcy negotiation process.
IMO, the pilots should have simply demanded more money AND 20% first dollar profit sharing (negotiation). Instead, they simply sold the profit sharing for a pittance of a raise the company was willing to pay (which Horton and Parker were glad to accommodate).
Number two is simply false. My advice: learn about the federal tax system before you go broadcasting your ignorance.AirLUVer said:
Federal tax withholding is required to be a higher percentage on bonus/profit sharing payments, but it's ultimately taxed the same as wages at the end of the year when you compute your taxes on your 1040.
WorldTraveler
Corn Field
- Dec 5, 2003
- 21,709
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- Banned
- #74
1. that's right... but if you are buying credit to 85% of your salary, you need your head examined in the airline industry anyway.
I can't tell you how many AA people I know who got in serious financial issues when AA started cutting pay in 2003. AA wasn't the only place that it took place but there were no shortage of AAers who spent borrowed far more money than they should have.
2. hogwash. You are WITHHELD at a higher rate but your tax rate is no different for profit sharing at the end of the year. If you aren't smart enough to talk to someone to help you plan your taxes, then you deserve to make less all year long. H&R Block charges less than an hour of flight pay to do your taxes and provide tax advice.
3. well duh. Why wouldn't they want to negotiate something that would cost them more money. the whole purpose of a union is to force issues that increase the economic value to members, regardless of whether the company likes it or not.
taking the line that the company doesn't want it shows how brainwashed labor has become at the hands of mgmt. Profit sharing is darn good money - and they want you to believe otherwise so you will get paid less. there simply is no other way to see it side by side DL and WN who pay out hundreds of millions of dollars every year and have for many years.
jimntx
Veteran
Yes, hindsight is 20/20. No one disputes that. But, at the time, were even you prepared to state that AA would have 2 (and possibly 3 ) 1 billion+ quarters in 2014?
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