Walmartgreeter
Veteran
- Mar 6, 2003
- 1,430
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Bottom line guys and gals, is the airline is toast. Management thieves want to make U the point man for union busting. It is not going to work. Best to us all. Greeter.
It Is Over
- Thread starter Walmartgreeter
- Start date
I think you're giving U executives too much credit. While there's probably little doubt that the company's being looted like Siegle did last April, I don't think Bruce's intension was to break the unions. The think the facts are that U leadership has been so incompetent and lethargic, that even going to rock-bottom employee compensation won't be able to save the company.
U execs have made such a royal mess of employee relations that there is zero trust in their neither their intentions or ability to extricate the company from the ever-deepening hole it's in.
U execs have made such a royal mess of employee relations that there is zero trust in their neither their intentions or ability to extricate the company from the ever-deepening hole it's in.
wings396
Veteran
- Aug 20, 2002
- 3,672
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If they don't want to Bust the Unions, What do they want to accomplish? They know the only way around this is to file BK, and have the Judge help them do the deed. In BK the Unions are Powerless, and the Company knows it. If they go to the Judge and he grants them the 1113, we may as well dump the Unions and save our dues money. Let's face it, we have all been paying dues for NOTHING the past 2 years. We pay them to negotiate concessions for us. Some of the Unions on the Property have even had the nuts to raise our dues after the wage cuts.
usfliboi
Veteran
- Aug 20, 2002
- 2,070
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You mean wed be profitable now? Not in BK? Not having these discussions? If Dave was that bad in bk, then youre really gonna like this trip. I said from the beginning, from a buisness standpoint, Dave biggest mistake, was not cutting more and using bk more , when he had the opportunity. Do i like it no! From a buisness standpoint however, it makes plaine sense.
- Banned
- #6
Funny U made money in the 90's after concessions. And if you were really what you claim to be (we all know differant as you were exposed not being honest) you would know what happened in 1992. Another fine example of you not being what you claim to be.
And in your spare time you need to go visit here www.iespell.com.
And in your spare time you need to go visit here www.iespell.com.
wings396
Veteran
- Aug 20, 2002
- 3,672
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700UW said:
In good times it was the way to go. Sad to say, but the Company is going to do to us what they would even if we had no Union or Contract this time around. I didn't object to paying dues when I had someone fighting for me on my side, but there will be no fight this time. Even with the last round of concessions, the IAM-FSA were sent a sub-par contract to vote on. With the criteria for Mainline Express and MDA allowing to Company to Express 3/4 of the Stations at their will. Only a few have been subjected to this so far, but many more will follow. For those in the Hubs and larger stations it was no big deal, but for the rest it was a complete sellout. As I'm sure you are aware, the IAM raised the dues of the Mainline Express FSA to EXCEED 3x thier hourly rate of pay after they took a $7 an hour hit. At that point most realized that the IAM was not really on thier side. Sad, but Very true....
On another note, the 1992 concessions were a "Walk in the Park" compared to what has been done in the past 2 years. At that time there was a Snapback to the old rates, and the stock options more than made up for what the pay concessions amounted to. The worst part of the 1992 package were the creation of the PDO system, which only the CSA/FSA group were subjected to.
No one in the world airline industry can comtrol 2 things:
1. OIL's PRICE
2. 9/11's repercutions on the industry
IF oil was $20.00/ barrel instead of $40.00 the unions would be asking for record salary increases, the never like airline managements. Just remember what Charlie Byran did for Eastern, he killed it.
1. OIL's PRICE
2. 9/11's repercutions on the industry
IF oil was $20.00/ barrel instead of $40.00 the unions would be asking for record salary increases, the never like airline managements. Just remember what Charlie Byran did for Eastern, he killed it.
- Banned
- #10
Frank Lorenzo killed Eastern and the Department of Transportation and the Department of Labor banned him from every owning, investing or partaking of any business dealings in the airline industry. And the bankruptcy court removed him from Eastern Airlines and appointed a Trustee to run the company.
So please tell me how Charlie Bryan killed Eastern?
Charlie Bryan was not.
And ALPA and the TWU also struck EA, tells you something when all labor groups strike a carrier.
In 1992, you lost your sick time, pension, vacation and OJI time. The ramp in the concessions got a pension back. 40% of full time workers were made part-time in 1992, you lost express, mail and freight.
So if you compare what happened in 1992 to present day you will say 1992 was much worse.
So please tell me how Charlie Bryan killed Eastern?
Charlie Bryan was not.
And ALPA and the TWU also struck EA, tells you something when all labor groups strike a carrier.
In 1992, you lost your sick time, pension, vacation and OJI time. The ramp in the concessions got a pension back. 40% of full time workers were made part-time in 1992, you lost express, mail and freight.
So if you compare what happened in 1992 to present day you will say 1992 was much worse.
GadgetFreak
Advanced
Walmartgreeter said:
Management dont care about uinion busting. They care about selling tickets for more than it costs them to fly the planes. That is the very simple fact of the matter. And they cant do it with this cost structure. They didnt declare bankruptcy to break the unions. They declared bankruptcy because their cash position was to the point where the ATSB could call the loans in causing an immediate and permenant shutdown of the airline. Even in bankruptcy that may happen but it is helping them conserve cash. Going into the slow season I dont see how they can keep enough cash to survive but hope they somehow manage.
700UW said:
No new labor deals that would provide sufficient savings for the company to make it a going concern.
Fact is the revenue hasn't rebounded to the point that was projected and oil is at record highs. Those are the real reasons despite what the union hall says.
GF....I have always thought that there is a second motive behind the BK filing besides the cash problem. Lack of talking between my union (CWA) and the company have confirmed my thoughts. Whether or not it is actually "union busting" will be determined after all is said and done. I can only speak on behalf of CWA and as far as I am concerned the company has not bargined in good faith at all. And lets not forget some of the statements from the man steering the ship during these times...David Bronner. "We will do it with or without the employees", "If we file BK we will liqudate", and "Better cash in those Dividend Miles". Kind makes me wonder............
1. Unions are not powerless in BK. They still have all the self-help remedies available to them, however, the consequences of those remedies may be different (although in U's case, a strike the week before BK would not be any different than a strike a week after BK).
2. Mr.AreoMan is right... The deal about the unions is a quick fix, live to fight another day. If Oil were even $30/bbl, UAIRQ would not be in as big a mess.
3. Charlie Bryan and the IAM are not blamesless in the EAL situation. Did Lorenzo loot and pillage EAL? Yes. Did Lorenzo attempt to bust the unions at EAL? Yes. Did Bryan/IAM go on strike for raises at a time when the company demanded concessions (and won them from other unions)? Yes. EAL's failure was not completely a result of the IAM sponsored strike, but it was the final nail in the coffin... To that extent, they are not blameless.
In the US Airways situation, I think that the unions get less blame than in the EAL case, simply because the unions did agree to concessions. In fact, UAIRQ unions donated huge concessions which management essentially could not turn into profits quick enough. Ultimately, management and "the situation (i.e. oil prices and post 9/11 RASM declines)" will be the blame for UAIRQ's demise, with a small supporting role for the unions, much less so than in EAL's case.
2. Mr.AreoMan is right... The deal about the unions is a quick fix, live to fight another day. If Oil were even $30/bbl, UAIRQ would not be in as big a mess.
3. Charlie Bryan and the IAM are not blamesless in the EAL situation. Did Lorenzo loot and pillage EAL? Yes. Did Lorenzo attempt to bust the unions at EAL? Yes. Did Bryan/IAM go on strike for raises at a time when the company demanded concessions (and won them from other unions)? Yes. EAL's failure was not completely a result of the IAM sponsored strike, but it was the final nail in the coffin... To that extent, they are not blameless.
In the US Airways situation, I think that the unions get less blame than in the EAL case, simply because the unions did agree to concessions. In fact, UAIRQ unions donated huge concessions which management essentially could not turn into profits quick enough. Ultimately, management and "the situation (i.e. oil prices and post 9/11 RASM declines)" will be the blame for UAIRQ's demise, with a small supporting role for the unions, much less so than in EAL's case.
