US FAs did not ratify a TA today; US and AFA negotiators reached a TA today that must be ratified by the membership before it's effective. The last TA was rejected by 75% of those voting.
Is USAirways hostile takeover Of AA for Real?
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PITbull
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- Dec 29, 2002
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http://www.latimes.c...0,2189129.story
I'm not the only one that believes that a merger with American and US Airways could hurt the consumer nu decrease on capacity rsulting increased fares....read on.
I'm not the only one that believes that a merger with American and US Airways could hurt the consumer nu decrease on capacity rsulting increased fares....read on.
WorldTraveler
Corn Field
- Dec 5, 2003
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thank you, 700.
Pit,
consumer groups almost NEVER like mergers with companies in the same industry because they almost always create efficiencies for the company which come at the expense of the consumer. In the airline industry, every merger has come w/ greater benefits for the consumer in terms of larger networks - but it hasn't been maintained in some mergers and it has almost always come w/ other reductions - that is the only way the companies can gain any benefit from their investment.
The US gov't has actually been rather supportive of US legacy carrier efforts to consolidate as long as there weren't major overlaps in key restricted access markets. The fact that few mergers have really produced all the benefits that were promised is the fault of the airlines that did the merging, not the government.
Once again, consolidation was an expected part of the effects of deregulation and with it the result that prices would rise and some choices would be reduced.
But still remember that there are likely going to be at least 4 network carriers in the US, each w/ pretty close to nationwide coverage (DL, UA, WN plus some combination of AA and US, perhaps both could be swallowed up by the remaining 3 but not likely) plus several low fare low fare/partially nationwide airlines such as AS, B6, F9, etc. The US consumer has more choices than they had during deregulation - and as we have noted, airfares w/ respect to the overall cost of living are far lower.
You are right that Parker continues to make very expensive promises which will be harder and harder to keep as unions at both AA and US will want more than just lip service to ensure their interests are kept.
I have raised the issue of frozen pensions at AA vs. terminated at US before... remember though that UA employees have terminated pensions and PMCO employees have active pensions so the difference doesn't have to be a deal breaker.
US employees are still paid well below their peers at AA, DL, and UA - and no one has yet to explain how Parker is going to avoid massive job losses in combining the two airlines while at the same time bringing pay rates for both AA and US employees at levels higher than what they can get as standalone companies. Even the greatest revenue benefits that DL and UA promised from their mergers can't come close to covering the cost of bringing AA and US employees up to pay levels comparable with DL and UA (while unsettled, UA appears to be recognizing that they have to pay their employees at or better than average for each work group if they want to merge PMCO and PMUA and gain the labor benefits promised by the merger).
If AA and US employees can't be assured there are real benefits from the merger compared with the certainty of job losses, it is doubtful they will support the merger when it really comes time to commit or not.
Pit,
consumer groups almost NEVER like mergers with companies in the same industry because they almost always create efficiencies for the company which come at the expense of the consumer. In the airline industry, every merger has come w/ greater benefits for the consumer in terms of larger networks - but it hasn't been maintained in some mergers and it has almost always come w/ other reductions - that is the only way the companies can gain any benefit from their investment.
The US gov't has actually been rather supportive of US legacy carrier efforts to consolidate as long as there weren't major overlaps in key restricted access markets. The fact that few mergers have really produced all the benefits that were promised is the fault of the airlines that did the merging, not the government.
Once again, consolidation was an expected part of the effects of deregulation and with it the result that prices would rise and some choices would be reduced.
But still remember that there are likely going to be at least 4 network carriers in the US, each w/ pretty close to nationwide coverage (DL, UA, WN plus some combination of AA and US, perhaps both could be swallowed up by the remaining 3 but not likely) plus several low fare low fare/partially nationwide airlines such as AS, B6, F9, etc. The US consumer has more choices than they had during deregulation - and as we have noted, airfares w/ respect to the overall cost of living are far lower.
You are right that Parker continues to make very expensive promises which will be harder and harder to keep as unions at both AA and US will want more than just lip service to ensure their interests are kept.
I have raised the issue of frozen pensions at AA vs. terminated at US before... remember though that UA employees have terminated pensions and PMCO employees have active pensions so the difference doesn't have to be a deal breaker.
US employees are still paid well below their peers at AA, DL, and UA - and no one has yet to explain how Parker is going to avoid massive job losses in combining the two airlines while at the same time bringing pay rates for both AA and US employees at levels higher than what they can get as standalone companies. Even the greatest revenue benefits that DL and UA promised from their mergers can't come close to covering the cost of bringing AA and US employees up to pay levels comparable with DL and UA (while unsettled, UA appears to be recognizing that they have to pay their employees at or better than average for each work group if they want to merge PMCO and PMUA and gain the labor benefits promised by the merger).
If AA and US employees can't be assured there are real benefits from the merger compared with the certainty of job losses, it is doubtful they will support the merger when it really comes time to commit or not.
jimntx
Veteran
Well, remember the AA DB plans are frozen as of 11/29/11 (the date of bankruptcy filing). So, retaining responsibility for them just means making sure that they are funded up to a point that will prevent the PBGC from objecting again when they dump the DBs down the road, or at least keeping them in a safe place so that they don't get lost
TG, I posted a link in a thread on your forum a week or so prior to your post:
Neidl has changed his tune (page 36?): http://www.airlineforums.com/topic/53502-us-aa-merger-articles-merged-topics/page__st__350
You may have heard that since Tom Hortons and Parkers breakfast meeting, the very same Neidl has reduced the chances to less than 50%..
It's funny how all the analysts trumpet the fact the APA has signed a contract with Parker... They thik that that translates to AA pilots wanting to work for DP. Far from it.. APA's board ran with a recent modification to the C&B, ( a modification intended for another reason) and slapped the deal with parker on our plates, signed, sealed and delivered. ( watch for an interesting development from the APA shortly)
I'd bet my last dollar that if you would survey AA pilots if they wanted a merger with LCC you would get less than 25% if favor today. Guys are finally opening their eyes and seeing that LCC brings a lot of people and a weak network that really doesn't solve AA's competative problems. True, it would be a life saving merger for LCC, but a half assed solution for AA- i.e. JFK/Pacific.
Regarding Parker... he's a B-lister. Always has been.. His current actions are no different that his previous.
Cute comment about the pj's... B)
A question for world traveler.. before I signed in on this computer, I was reading a couple of threads...
I noticed that you and spectator "Hate" everything "E" says no matter what it is... Do you have two accounts?? Are you monkeying with stats? Log out and have a look... The "Like, hate" stats show differently when you're not logged in..
I noticed that you and spectator "Hate" everything "E" says no matter what it is... Do you have two accounts?? Are you monkeying with stats? Log out and have a look... The "Like, hate" stats show differently when you're not logged in..
WorldTraveler
Corn Field
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you'd have to ask E why he places the "hate" tag on all of his posts.
Quite frankly, he says alot of things about which I don't disagree.... which would be true w/ alot of posters on here. To categorically think that someone HATES everything you write is, shall we say, deviating from the centerline.
Yes, it has been discussed here before, and I have used the Spectator login to attempt to counter act (without much success which is why I have largely abandoned trying) the incessant red button pushing of a few people who have managed at various periods to vote down EVERY post I have written, regardless of the content. You might start with asking FWAAA and Kev3188 among others why that is and more importantly if they feel better now.. and you can throw in the user name Veritas whose posts (when he did) frequently appear in the same conversation with E's. E says he doesn't use two IDs but Veritas, despite not participating in many of the posts I participate in, somehow managed to be a massive red button pusher in my posts. Those aren't the only three but they combined add up to literally hundreds, perhaps thousands, of my negative votes. Have a look at their reputation pages.. you'll have to go back a few months since most have slowed down to a relative snails pace.
Take a look also at how many profile views I have.... people here seem absolutely fascinated at keeping up w/ my "reputation"
I have clearly tangled with all three of the above and a few other chronic red button pushers - yet surprisingly on issue after issue, I have turned out to be right.
Notably, with several, I have tangled for years about AA's financial condition and the repercussions that would occur if AA didn't turn things around. So far, I have been dead right.
The whole thing doesn't add up to me either but I'm content to leave sleeping dogs lie - other than to respond to questions such as yours.
The post voting system is a joke - and most importantly has no correlation to whether anything that is written actually has any validity.
Since I don't really put any credence in the post voting system, it would be a long stretch to believe I am manipulating it. Talk to the forum administration - as well as some of the mods, who incidentally happen to among the chronic red button pushers.
Not sure what your question has to do with the topic at hand, but I responded.
--
I will agree with you that Parker can't deliver what AA pilots think he will and have a viable company down the road - unless he throws his own employees out the door. Something has to give. AA has far more revenue generating capacity.
I don't like the situation you guys are in and I have never disagreed that AA screwed up in their turnaround almost 10 years ago compared w/ other airlines that turned their ships around much faster - and have allowed their employees to begin recovering some of their sacrifices.
I'm not saying how the vote should have gone or what AA pilots should do from here.
I am having a hard time seeing how the path AA and its labor groups is on is going to end up producing anything positive, let alone wages and benefits as good as what most AA people once knew.
Quite frankly, he says alot of things about which I don't disagree.... which would be true w/ alot of posters on here. To categorically think that someone HATES everything you write is, shall we say, deviating from the centerline.
Yes, it has been discussed here before, and I have used the Spectator login to attempt to counter act (without much success which is why I have largely abandoned trying) the incessant red button pushing of a few people who have managed at various periods to vote down EVERY post I have written, regardless of the content. You might start with asking FWAAA and Kev3188 among others why that is and more importantly if they feel better now.. and you can throw in the user name Veritas whose posts (when he did) frequently appear in the same conversation with E's. E says he doesn't use two IDs but Veritas, despite not participating in many of the posts I participate in, somehow managed to be a massive red button pusher in my posts. Those aren't the only three but they combined add up to literally hundreds, perhaps thousands, of my negative votes. Have a look at their reputation pages.. you'll have to go back a few months since most have slowed down to a relative snails pace.
Take a look also at how many profile views I have.... people here seem absolutely fascinated at keeping up w/ my "reputation"
I have clearly tangled with all three of the above and a few other chronic red button pushers - yet surprisingly on issue after issue, I have turned out to be right.
Notably, with several, I have tangled for years about AA's financial condition and the repercussions that would occur if AA didn't turn things around. So far, I have been dead right.
The whole thing doesn't add up to me either but I'm content to leave sleeping dogs lie - other than to respond to questions such as yours.
The post voting system is a joke - and most importantly has no correlation to whether anything that is written actually has any validity.
Since I don't really put any credence in the post voting system, it would be a long stretch to believe I am manipulating it. Talk to the forum administration - as well as some of the mods, who incidentally happen to among the chronic red button pushers.
Not sure what your question has to do with the topic at hand, but I responded.
--
I will agree with you that Parker can't deliver what AA pilots think he will and have a viable company down the road - unless he throws his own employees out the door. Something has to give. AA has far more revenue generating capacity.
I don't like the situation you guys are in and I have never disagreed that AA screwed up in their turnaround almost 10 years ago compared w/ other airlines that turned their ships around much faster - and have allowed their employees to begin recovering some of their sacrifices.
I'm not saying how the vote should have gone or what AA pilots should do from here.
I am having a hard time seeing how the path AA and its labor groups is on is going to end up producing anything positive, let alone wages and benefits as good as what most AA people once knew.
WT has an alter ego or two (additional usernames) that he uses to vote up his own posts, just like USA320Pilot. Don't know if he's still using the alter egos to vote up his posts - but it brings to mind a recent episode of the Simpsons where Lisa did the same thing.
Hopeful
Veteran
- Dec 21, 2002
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Well, remember the AA DB plans are frozen as of 11/29/11 (the date of bankruptcy filing). So, retaining responsibility for them just means making sure that they are funded up to a point that will prevent the PBGC from objecting again when they dump the DBs down the road, or at least keeping them in a safe place so that they don't get lost
So, is company 5.5% 401k match RETRO to 11/29/11?
WorldTraveler
Corn Field
- Dec 5, 2003
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since the reputation system is based on being transparent - at least one way, then it isn't hard to tell what any user name is doing. That is probably why the number of visits to my profile has skyrocketed of late.
Even though Spectator doesn't have a single post to his name, 391 people have still bothered to go look at his profile - apparently preoccupied with his post voting habits.
Notably absent in the post voting system is the source of votes in the same place as the results. It's not hard to find out what a person has received or given, but you can't connect the two directly at the post level which provides a great deal of ability for hit and run use of the post voting system.
If you want to have a board that is focused on the exchange of information, then accuracy of what is said has to be a consideration. If the focus is simply on pushing an idea whether there is any chance it will be true, then a voting system - or the words they are attached to - have virtually no meaning.
and your contribution to the topic at hand is...?
Even though Spectator doesn't have a single post to his name, 391 people have still bothered to go look at his profile - apparently preoccupied with his post voting habits.
Notably absent in the post voting system is the source of votes in the same place as the results. It's not hard to find out what a person has received or given, but you can't connect the two directly at the post level which provides a great deal of ability for hit and run use of the post voting system.
If you want to have a board that is focused on the exchange of information, then accuracy of what is said has to be a consideration. If the focus is simply on pushing an idea whether there is any chance it will be true, then a voting system - or the words they are attached to - have virtually no meaning.
and your contribution to the topic at hand is...?
I doubt it. Despite jimntx's inaccurate post, the pensions are not frozen as of 11/29/11. Had they been terminated, the law required that benefits be fixed as of that date. Since they will be frozen and not terminated (except maybe the pilots' plan), the effective date of the freeze will be the date the court approves the new agreement (DOS).
The freeze date hasn't been determined yet. At the APFA road shows it was stated that in their opinion it would be frozen september 1st. Don't worry, jimntx is too busy listening to galley gossip and making up facts to actually pay attention to the real activities of the bankruptcy going ons. It seems that his strategy of peppering the Internet with false statements is taking too much of his time, plus people are starting to call him on all his false facts. Once again, a road show appearance would have really helped him!
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