Interesting quotes from the courtroom.....

[Ch. 12]

In all honesty, I'm of the opinion that the significant investment (decades) of time and work into becomming an Airline Pilot at DAL is resulting in pilot working for LESS than what comparable skills, investment, and individual quality would be paid in other industries. Case in point, I attend school on the side, and two friends who will graduate with a Master's soon (school has a PhD in the same field also) have already been offered a 6 figure STARTING salary that is in excess of what DAL is offering a 12th year 777 F/O.

Again...the non-pilots also go through DECADES of significan training and education to get to where they are. I respect the piloting profession but PLEASE try to BEGIN to understand that there are far more jobs out there that require just as much investment as pilots.
Also...don't think your buddies are the norm. Many of us are educated to the masters level and above and have not instantly been offerred a high 6 figure job...nor even a low 6 figure job. I went through an executive program while also working and make less than 6 figures b/c I'm doing what I ENJOY...not what earns me a fat check.

I'd be willing to bet that 80% of the current pilot population would have pursued other careers had they known what the pay and benefits would fall to in this profession.

I hope you're wrong on your %. I would love to have higher pay and benefits but I left and returned to this industry...with a paycut...b/c I enjoy it.

A clear indication of this can be seen by the abysmal rate of recall acceptance at UAL. The company has apparently had to call 3 furloughees to get 1 to show up. When pilots are forced to examine other options, the profession becomes less and less attractive.

I would hope that STABILITY is the issue and not just PAY. The whole American Dream is based on doing what you want to do...even if it doesn't pay as much as a lawyer. But if you don't feel secure in your job...that is a good reason to not come back.

I'm curious though, when this results in a real drop in safety 10 years from now, who will you blame?

I'd be more worried with not having qualified mechanics than with the pilot situation. For every one commercial pilot, I would venture to say that there are 10 or more waiting in the wings b/c the enjoy to FLY...not just to cash their paycheck. If your 80% figure is even close to right, I'd say that those waiting in the wings have different priorities. Also...thankfully the largest advances to aircraft since the 707 have been in safety equipment and even though it still takes a tremendous amount of skill and knowledge to pilot...you get alot more help than the sky cowboys of the pre-DC3 days. Alot of the "kinks" such as wings falling off of Comets have been overcome.

 

[DLFlyer31]

I'm curious though, when this results in a real drop in safety 10 years from now, who will you blame?

Are you implying that pilots will fly less safely because they are paid less? I've never seen any correlation between pilot pay and safety. For a long time, pilots at Southwest were paid less than their counterparts, but WN has a very good safety record. If pay really determined safety, then there should be regional jets and props falling out of the sky everyday considering the extremely low pay at the regional level.

As you mention, these low pay levels are going to scare people off from entering the pilot profession. However, that's probably the best thing that could ever happen for the pilot profession. An eventual pilot shortage would force salaries higher.

 

[FWAAA]

Are you implying that pilots will fly less safely because they are paid less? I've never seen any correlation between pilot pay and safety. For a long time, pilots at Southwest were paid less than their counterparts, but WN has a very good safety record. If pay really determined safety, then there should be regional jets and props falling out of the sky everyday considering the extremely low pay at the regional level.

As you mention, these low pay levels are going to scare people off from entering the pilot profession. However, that's probably the best thing that could ever happen for the pilot profession. An eventual pilot shortage would force salaries higher.

Excellent post. Low pay will eventually weed out the candidates who are in it solely for the money, leaving those who really want to fly - even if flying doesn't pay the rent.

Eventually, the market will correct the pay if it's too low to attract enough qualified candidates.

I completely agree with you about pay and safety. Highly paid commercial jet pilots like to say that they would never compromise safety since they value their life - so why would anyone assume differently in the case of low-paid regional pilots? Just because they're only 25 or 30 or 35 (and make a fraction of a 744 or 777 pilot) doesn't mean they have any less desire to fly safe and live.

 

[Busdrvr]

Excellent post. Low pay will eventually weed out the candidates who are in it solely for the money, leaving those who really want to fly - even if flying doesn't pay the rent.

Eventually, the market will correct the pay if it's too low to attract enough qualified candidates.

I completely agree with you about pay and safety. Highly paid commercial jet pilots like to say that they would never compromise safety since they value their life - so why would anyone assume differently in the case of low-paid regional pilots? Just because they're only 25 or 30 or 35 (and make a fraction of a 744 or 777 pilot) doesn't mean they have any less desire to fly safe and live.

Low pay will eventually weed out the HIGHLY QUALIFIED.
Let's go over this slowly.
- Pilots have a great job that is oh so much fun.
BS. If flying from ORD to DSM 5 times a day is "fun" then you really have no understanding of the job. Consider the average military pilot who made the transition. he either flew around at the speed of heat spending the better part of the day upside down, flew his half million pound jet within 20 feet of another half million pound jet to refuel before landing on NVG's in a combat zone, or he put his 150,000 lb jet onto a 2500 ft dirt strip lit up with chem lights to ingress SF forces. That is flying. We used the skills we learned in those days to make aviation safe in the US for passengers. Is there some "value" to be derived from the "fun" of the job? Sure. But if you think the "joy" of flying the "big iron" into ORD will attract quality pilots, you're on crack.
- "Let market forces determine the rate qualified pilots will be paid."
First, the market has trouble handeling a career that has such a high value attached to seniority. The value of ones seniority can, and does, get used against the pilot to lower his compensation. It's a sunk cost situation. The other problem is that the minimum qualification levels established by the government do not come even close to ensuring safety. You can sit in the right seat of a 747-400 with around 350 hours of flight time, and in the left seat with only 1500, most of which is in a cessna 150. In the past, good compensation resulted in quality folks being in those seats. Idiots crash jets fairly frequently in other parts of the world. Those idiots meet all the U.S. flight time requiremnts and are willing to do it for low pay.
- This won't happen overnight. Likewise, when safety becomes an issue, it won't/can't fix itself quickly either. The average guy flying a 747-400 across the pacific for a U.S. airline has about 35 years of experience. Any guess at how long it would take to find a quality candidate and get him 35 years of experience? The math may be a little tough for you.
- Pilots wouldn't compromise safety at any level because of low pay. HOWEVER, if you only pay peanuts, and thus only attract monkey's, then the drop in safety levels is due to the limited capability of who is left, not any malice on his part.
- SWA's total compensation was fairly close if not higher in some cases due to the accounting laws which allowed the company to pay employees with part of the company's equity, without it making the income statement.

Chapt 12,
It comes as no surprise to me that you didn't get the 6 figure offers with your MBA. Nor does it surprise me that you then make the leap that the quality of the individual you can get to do a task is not important. That is where we have our differance. In the business world, an MBA may be a de facto requirement to be in upper management. Does that mean I'd be a competant manager with a MBA from the University of Phoenix? Look at the average SAT/ACT score for an AFA or USNA appointee. How does it compare to you? these are the people who later would have become pilots at the major airlines. They are high achievers. they are in demand in other industries. I'll put my ACT/SAT, GRE's or education level against anybody on these boards. But now YOU want to make the decision on how much the industry will pay based on what the last minimimally qualified schmoe will accept, and then you expect to cash in on all the extra profits you gain with the lower cost. I'm wondering though, if your blue light special pilot pounds one in to an apartment building (like in Iran), will YOU accept the responsibility? Will YOU be willing to pay all the claims out of YOUR pocket? Will YOU agree to be prosecuted for manslaughter since YOU cut corners at risk of safety? I didn't think so. You want the market to decide, then you must impose the FULL downside of a money saving strategy on the decision maker, as well as the upside. Seems to me, you are playing blackjack under the rules that the results only matter if you win, if you lose, someone else pays the tab. That's NOT the free market.

 

[Ch. 12]

Chapt 12,
It comes as no surprise to me that you didn't get the 6 figure offers with your MBA. Nor does it surprise me that you then make the leap that the quality of the individual you can get to do a task is not important. That is where we have our differance. In the business world, an MBA may be a de facto requirement to be in upper management. Does that mean I'd be a competant manager with a MBA from the University of Phoenix? Look at the average SAT/ACT score for an AFA or USNA appointee. How does it compare to you? these are the people who later would have become pilots at the major airlines. They are high achievers. they are in demand in other industries. I'll put my ACT/SAT, GRE's or education level against anybody on these boards. But now YOU want to make the decision on how much the industry will pay based on what the last minimimally qualified schmoe will accept, and then you expect to cash in on all the extra profits you gain with the lower cost. I'm wondering though, if your blue light special pilot pounds one in to an apartment building (like in Iran), will YOU accept the responsibility? Will YOU be willing to pay all the claims out of YOUR pocket? Will YOU agree to be prosecuted for manslaughter since YOU cut corners at risk of safety? I didn't think so. You want the market to decide, then you must impose the FULL downside of a money saving strategy on the decision maker, as well as the upside. Seems to me, you are playing blackjack under the rules that the results only matter if you win, if you lose, someone else pays the tab. That's NOT the free market.

Bus-

You really are an arrogant SOB that thinks you've figured everyone out, aren't you? I NEVER judged you nor did I try to attack your character. Sorry to burst your bubble and your superior ACT/SAT/Educ.Level (for that matter...some of us had to take a little thing called a GMAT for our education...99th percentile if you want to know), but no...no Univ of Phoenix here. Your defamation of character...not just of me but of others...will really ruin your credibility. Especially your superiority issue. Take your pissing match somewhere else because you don't know what you are talking about. I AM a high achiever and have no doubts that my accomplishments, test scores, and ability would put me rather high compared to your AFA/USNA appointees. I graduated in the top 2% of my class and really...outside of having to call you out...I don't care.

So what is your point? Still better than everyone else? I don't care. There's no convincing you otherwise. Back to the premise of my earlier post, though...I do what I do b/c I enjoy it...not because of the financial rewards. I left the industry and did make quite a bit in Healthcare but chose to return to the industry that I ENJOY working for. Since switching...I have also taken more paycuts with DL but you know what...I still enjoy it. If money is what matters to you, become an I-Banker. Don't know how many offers there are for MBA's to go that route but it doesn't interest me.

Get off your high horse and stop spouting off about things you don't know. Your fantasy world doesn't play well here and your defamation is insulting. You narcissistic approach to life not only turns me off but I'm sure many others on these boards.

 

[DLFlyer31]

You can sit in the right seat of a 747-400 with around 350 hours of flight time, and in the left seat with only 1500, most of which is in a cessna 150. In the past, good compensation resulted in quality folks being in those seats. Idiots crash jets fairly frequently in other parts of the world. Those idiots meet all the U.S. flight time requiremnts and are willing to do it for low pay.

Using this logic, we should have RJ's and props crashing all the time. Many of the pilots at the regionals aren't military and don't have all the experience. Many of them are ERAU grads who just barely meet the mins.

The pay is disgustingly low at the regionals. So only "idiots" would work there using your logic. So once again, why aren't the regionals a big disaster? Particularly since regional pilots have to go through a lot more landings and takeoffs everyday then your 35 year 747 captain.

I'll agree that the seniority system is used against pilots when negotiating wages. Maybe it's time for the boys at ALPA to start pushing for some reform to the seniority system? God forbid ALPA look forward instead of clinging to a past that cannot be resurrected.

 

[luv2fly]

The pay is disgustingly low at the regionals.

I would be making more now annually had I stayed at ASA, and that is at current DL rates. Another 19%? Good Lord. There will be an exodus from the bottom if this proposed contract is rammed down our throats.

 

[Busdrvr]

Using this logic, we should have RJ's and props crashing all the time. Many of the pilots at the regionals aren't military and don't have all the experience. Many of them are ERAU grads who just barely meet the mins.

The pay is disgustingly low at the regionals. So only "idiots" would work there using your logic. So once again, why aren't the regionals a big disaster? Particularly since regional pilots have to go through a lot more landings and takeoffs everyday then your 35 year 747 captain.

I'll agree that the seniority system is used against pilots when negotiating wages. Maybe it's time for the boys at ALPA to start pushing for some reform to the seniority system? God forbid ALPA look forward instead of clinging to a past that cannot be resurrected.

In the past, the regional pilots accepted much lower pay with the knowledge they would be making significantly more later. That insured that the regionals still got quality folks. Dr's do the same thing during residency, and even lowly MBA's often do it via internships. I agree that there need to be some changes in the way current payscales are formulated. WRT crashes, there have been a fair number of regional crashes in the last few years that were due to pilot error. I'm sure had those accidents been in larger jets, public outcry would have been a little differant.

Chapt 12,
YOU sir are the one who repeatedly has insisted that pilots were overpaid, and didn't work nearly as much as "normal people". My responses to you have been in defense of the sacrifices made by those in that profession. YOU are the one with the sense of entitlement. I'm perfectly aware of the economic realities of the industry. I just think that ALL should share in the sacrifice. If one group loses it's pensions, then so should YOU. If one group takes a 50% paycut, so should YOU. Let's be frank. Who failed post 911? Did the pilots start crashing every other day? Did the mechs stop doing MX? Or did the bush league MBA's fail? Whose models were wrong? Who blew the hedging strategy? Who didn't have the brains to deal with the employees as equals and negotiate amicable contract cut's? Shared sacrife doesn't mean you accept a Lexus as a company car instead of an M5.

"So what is your point? Still better than everyone else? I don't care. There's no convincing you otherwise."

My point is not that we are "better", I'm refuting your BS that we aren't your equal. Get it?

"I do what I do b/c I enjoy it...not because of the financial rewards."

Then surely you support across the board paycuts, pension and staffing cuts for management that equal the cuts taken by the pilots.

"99th percentile if you want to know"

99.5 for me. Am I your equal?

"I AM a high achiever and have no doubts that my accomplishments, test scores, and ability would put me rather high compared to your AFA/USNA appointees."

Your scores may make you compete, but your character and ethics wouldn't pass the test. The mil service academies prefer to build leader, not "let them eat cake" elitist.

And sorry, I have little, if any, respect for MBA's. The curriculum is a joke, and the product is more times than not a "know it all" who spouts off about things he has no knowledge of, like the pilot profession.

The differance between you and I, is that I have seen both sides. I've been a "manager" and a pilot. I've worked 12 hour days then went to school for 4 more. But through it all, the most worn out I've been was after flying 120 hours of international widebody time during one month, with an extra pilot on board to share the workload. Yet, you'd foolishly point out that "normal people" work 160 hours a month. What a joke.

 

[Ch. 12]

No Bus...the difference between you and I is that you don't know when to stop making ridiculous assumptions AND you have an ego. You want to talk ethics? I am the one on these boards defending my fellow workers...pilots included...from egotists like you that keep stating "you just don't understand that with MY education and MY skills and MY experience"...you keep saying that crap so of course it is you with the ego problem. I only bring up education when you tell me I went to Univ of Phoenix Online or that I cannot qualify for this an that. You get upset when called out on the carpet (like oh yeah...percentiles end at 99...there ain't decimals but yes...you can piss farther than me...you have won the pissing contest). I don't care...I just get pissed off that you can't seem to get it through your head that you are not that much better than the rest of us and we all have made huge sacrafices to get where we are. You aren't special. And I never said I'm better than you at all...just have to make an example to the high and mighty busdriver that unlike your contemptuous and arrogant posts...you are not as elite as you would like to believe and do not deserve extra special treatment.

So quit your assumptions b/c you know what they say about those. And oh yeah...my "lexus" is a Honda and my "executive perks" and lack of paycuts come down to multiple paycuts over the past few years and making FAR less than comparable jobs in other industries. But I LIKE it. It get's in your blood as you should know. You obviously don't like it anymore so I suggest now might be the time to get out. Especially before planes start falling from the sky or crashing into buildings (per your statements).

And Puhlease take your vindictiveness elsewhere. One thing I am happy to say is that Delta employees and pilots have historically stood together. Don't get too excited that a minority of pilots have dissented. The rest are great people that don't seem to suffer your narcissistic cancer. Quit flame-baiting the DL board and get a life.

 

[Bear96]

Eventually, the market will correct the pay if it's too low to attract enough qualified candidates.

Busdrvr

I gotta agree with FWAAA on this one. There is an endless supply of qualified candidates willing to fly from DSM to ORD five times a day for a lot less money than you are willing to believe.

Even on the major international airline level, look at western Europe (or even Canada). Pilots are paid considerably less there compared to the US, and safety doesn't seem to be suffering.

Yes, to be an airline pilot takes a lot of training and skill and not everyone can do it. But enough people can do it well enough, and still have the "glamorous" image in their heads about what a great job it is, to ensure that pilot wages still have a way to fall before the demand for qualified pilots in the US exceeds the supply.

And by then, the airlines will have figured out a way to get non-US pilots who are willing to settle for even less. I am sure there are lots of very well trained ex-Russian Air Force pilots (for example) who would love to fly from DSM to ORD five times per day and live in the US for $50K/yr ...

 

[WorldTraveler]

Once again, pilot salaries are determined by the market and, in reality, there are no shortage of people who are capable of doing the job or being trained to do it. Right now there are thousands of out of work pilots who would be willing to work if given the opportunity. And there is nothing to say that airlines could not subsidize training if they have to in order to keep a supply of new hire pilots coming in the event that too few people are willing to invest in a flying career. Since most of the major's pilots are ex-military (and I believe DL has one of the higher percentages of ex-military pilots), you and me as taxpayers have already subsidized pilot training.

 

[Walmartgreeter]

Since most of the major's pilots are ex-military (and I believe DL has one of the higher percentages of ex-military pilots), you and me as taxpayers have already subsidized pilot training.
[/quote]

I know what you are saying, and at a certain level it is true. But just to go a little deeper....My opinion is every bit of that training was paid back in full by each airman. in many cases it is the pilot that is "owed." Today's airmen are paying an even higher price, with more combat exposure, long deployments, and long service commitments. Take care WT, Mark.

 

[luv2fly]

Since most of the major's pilots are ex-military (and I believe DL has one of the higher percentages of ex-military pilots), you and me as taxpayers have already subsidized pilot training.

I would say the percentage of DL pilots that were prior military is around 55-60%.
All civilian here. You subsidized nothing.
You conveniently forget to mention those military pilots weren't trained to be airline pilots. They were trained to fight wars and to help protect your freedom.
I will gladly "subsidize" that any day. Maybe you should try thanking them instead.

 

[Busdrvr]

Once again, pilot salaries are determined by the market and, in reality, there are no shortage of people who are capable of doing the job or being trained to do it. Right now there are thousands of out of work pilots who would be willing to work if given the opportunity. And there is nothing to say that airlines could not subsidize training if they have to in order to keep a supply of new hire pilots coming in the event that too few people are willing to invest in a flying career. Since most of the major's pilots are ex-military (and I believe DL has one of the higher percentages of ex-military pilots), you and me as taxpayers have already subsidized pilot training.

after saying nice things to me in another string, you try to spin me up with this.... . Yes, the govt spent quite a bit of money training me, but I feel they gave it to me straight up the rear, one nickel at a time. I personally feel I've paid back every dime, and then some, although my payment will never equal that of the average infantry soldier.

 

[NewHampshire Black Bears]

NHBB-

With all due respect, this is the DELTA board and I think it's completely relevant to mention all employees of DL. To understand the issues in full context, you have to consider all involved. The context of DL's situation is that they are weak and getting weaker...and that affects all employees alike.

IIRC, there used to be a union-only board here but I think that it got a little too heated (imagine that! ) and I don't see it around anymore.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


Ch.12

Quote: To understand the "ISSUES" in full context, you have to consider all involved"

You are WRONG when the "ISSUE" is DALPA's $$pay and benefits.

This issue is between "3" entities Ch.12, and 3 entities ONLY. NO ONE ELSE IS INVOLVED, or CONSIDERED. !!!!!!!!!!!

(DL...The PILOTS..and ALPA)

Why,
Because the DL pilots wanted a bargaining agent to deal with DL management.
After a legal election, the feds informed DL that they must deal with ALPA, with regard to ALL MATTERS pertaining the pilots.

(Here comes the hard part for you)

Delta Airlines AGREED, and signed "on the bottom line" !!!!

Your probably a VERY intelligent individual, BUT every time your common sense/Logical side of your brain suggest's you ACCEPT/VALIDATE(or a least consider) the mechanics of a LEGAL union, I fear that your EMOTIONAL side goes into super DENIAL mode !!!!

A 1000% correct "saying" emerged from a great film(a few years back) "THE PERFECT STORM" (George Clooney)

The "saying"..........

"It IS what it IS" !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

NH/BB's