Interesting quotes from the courtroom.....

[WorldTraveler]

avek,
I would argue that DL has followed the statute in meeting all 8 of the requirements so far, including presenting financial evidence that the cuts are needed for the company's survival. DL's challenge at this point is to make it through the winter so the route restructuring can bear some fruit and they are doing that with borrowed money - the only funds they will likely see until they emerge from bankruptcy. It is highly incumbent on all parties involved to halt the flood of red ink at Delta or the company will simply not even get to the point of being able to develop a plan of reorganization. However, I do agree that it is probably not necessary for the company to get everything it is asking for the period of time it is asking for that to happen; ie it is probably in DL and DALPA's interest to take a deeper cut for a short term with some snapback clauses (which companies hate) that are also accompanied by clauses that trigger further cuts. Part of the reason DL is trying to cut so deep is because the process of getting pilot costs down when needed is so incredibly difficult. I am confident DL would not reach as far if they felt they could manage pilot costs better as the business changes but airline labor contracts simply don't work that way. And I'm also certain that DL's non-contract employees will see a return of some of their rewards sooner than the pilots because the company can much more easily control non-contract labor costs. WN pilots are ALPA represented and yet they have historically been much more willing to work with the company to ensure each other's mutual success.... it's a novel concept DALPA should embrace.

and NHBB,
the judge did not say that DL has no obligation to its non-contract employees; she did say that what DL has done to them is not a consideration of how the pilot case is handled. She deals with contracts; there is no contract at issue with DL's non-pilot employees and the judge has absolutely no interest or concern with DL's relationship w/ those employees. She also will have no interest or concern if DL chooses to change non-contract pay and benefits after a pilot agreement is reached - even if it is for the better.

 

[luv2fly]

WN pilots are ALPA represented and yet they have historically been much more willing to work with the company to ensure each other's mutual success.... it's a novel concept DALPA should embrace.

WN is not ALPA.
The novel concept you refer to would require some degree of mutual respect and trust with management which has not existed at DL for some time.

 

[Ch. 12]

WN is not ALPA.
The novel concept you refer to would require some degree of mutual respect and trust with management which has not existed at DL for some time.

But Leo is gone... Can't we give LUV a chance?

 

[Busdrvr]

And I'm also certain that DL's non-contract employees will see a return of some of their rewards sooner than the pilots because the company can much more easily control non-contract labor costs. WN pilots are ALPA represented and yet they have historically been much more willing to work with the company to ensure each other's mutual success.... it's a novel concept DALPA should embrace.

Funny that you only mention one side of the equation. A company gets the union they deserve. I firmly believe had Leo not said 'a contract is a contract' when DALPA requested early contract negotiations after giving big to make the company profitable during the last downturn, DALPA would have been in line to deal with the company very early, and DAL wouldn't be BK. It's a trust issue. I think the way to get needed concessions is to quit being so MF'n greedy and deal with the union from the perspective of having the same goals and objectives. DAL has already been embarressed in open court after DALPA pointed out how they had tried to negotiate certain provisions that the judge thought were a good idea, and been rejected out of hand.

Unfortunately, it appears that DAL is still run by people who've never had a callous, and view employees as nothing more than a line item liability, rather than as an ASSET. Sadly UAL, despite all the bluster, is still going down that same path. An example is that UAL will cut of pass travel for it's furloughed employees effect Jan 1, yet have the gall to then say how they look forward to getting the furloughed employees back. BS. Actions speak louder than words, and employees have LONG memories. Do you think a recalled employee who made huge sacrifices for the company, then gets B-slapped, will be the guy who busts his arse for the team? I'm thinking his sick bank will stay at rather low levels.....

 

[PBRmeASAP]

avek,
I would argue that DL has followed the statute in meeting all 8 of the requirements so far, including presenting financial evidence that the cuts are needed for the company's survival. DL's challenge at this point is to make it through the winter so the route restructuring can bear some fruit and they are doing that with borrowed money - the only funds they will likely see until they emerge from bankruptcy. It is highly incumbent on all parties involved to halt the flood of red ink at Delta or the company will simply not even get to the point of being able to develop a plan of reorganization. However, I do agree that it is probably not necessary for the company to get everything it is asking for the period of time it is asking for that to happen; ie it is probably in DL and DALPA's interest to take a deeper cut for a short term with some snapback clauses (which companies hate) that are also accompanied by clauses that trigger further cuts. Part of the reason DL is trying to cut so deep is because the process of getting pilot costs down when needed is so incredibly difficult. I am confident DL would not reach as far if they felt they could manage pilot costs better as the business changes but airline labor contracts simply don't work that way. And I'm also certain that DL's non-contract employees will see a return of some of their rewards sooner than the pilots because the company can much more easily control non-contract labor costs. WN pilots are ALPA represented and yet they have historically been much more willing to work with the company to ensure each other's mutual success.... it's a novel concept DALPA should embrace.

and NHBB,
the judge did not say that DL has no obligation to its non-contract employees; she did say that what DL has done to them is not a consideration of how the pilot case is handled. She deals with contracts; there is no contract at issue with DL's non-pilot employees and the judge has absolutely no interest or concern with DL's relationship w/ those employees. She also will have no interest or concern if DL chooses to change non-contract pay and benefits after a pilot agreement is reached - even if it is for the better.

"see a return of some of their rewards".........Yeeeeeee Haaaaaw fill the crack pipe up again!.....Ive heard it all. Since when is getting back what was yours a reward? THe only non contract givebacks will be to upper mgt.

 

[WorldTraveler]

busdriver,
what I will agree with you on is that all of the legacies are moving down exactly the same path with very little distinguishing characteristics between them - including in employee relationships. While AA and CO may appear in better shape now, it's only a matter of timing since their people have taken a beating at other times.

I really don't want to hear another word about a lack of trust between DL mgmt in the eyes of the pilots. To say that DL management didn't do anything for the pilots at time X completely overlooks ALPA's willingness to help the company at time Y. There have been any number of times when ALPA has failed to act in a responsible manner and I am certain that the consequences of ALPA's actions will not be turned around anytime soon.

PR,
I think one of DL's biggest mistakes has been to treat its non-pilot personnel the same way it has treated its pilots - at least in terms of aligning pay and benefit cuts. I think you will see DL move away from that "one for all, all for one" policy. DALPA has obviously decided it doesn't have any loyalty to the rest of the employees so I say the company should and will begin restoring bennies to the non-contract employees long before ALPA's contract is up. After all, ALPA had absolutely no interest in working w/ the company before they brought it to its knees so there is no reason why the company should do anything for ALPA until they DALPA decides they are going to take responsibility for turning things around instead of being a continual thorn in the side to management. I had hopes that Lee Moak and his cronies would demonstrate a bit more intelligence but it's obvious that he is determined for DL labor relations to look just like the rest of the industry's.

 

[luv2fly]

DALPA has obviously decided it doesn't have any loyalty to the rest of the employees
I had hopes that Lee Moak and his cronies would demonstrate a bit more intelligence but it's obvious that he is determined for DL labor relations to look just like the rest of the industry's.

Then why is DALPA still lobbying for pension relief? DALPA has already proclaimed the pilot defined benefit plan unsalvageable, and yet it continues to lobby for pension relief in hopes that non contract employees may retain their full benefit.
You you mind explaining what "loyalty" any other employee group has demonstrated?
Lee Moak is now part of the cronies? First it was Malone, and now Moak. You just aren't happy with anyone that refuses to play managements game.

 

[WorldTraveler]

I would expect Moak to argue for pension reform as he and every other labor group (including DL's nonunion employees who do have representation). I do not expect him to make statements that DL has already determined that the plans will be terminated when it is clear they have not been. DALPA needs to put stipulations in the agreement forcing DL to reopen the contract if the plans are terminated - not assume they have been and bake costs into the proposal that assumes they have been.

 

[NewHampshire Black Bears]

I would expect Moak to argue for pension reform as he and every other labor group (including DL's nonunion employees who do have representation). I do not expect him to make statements that DL has already determined that the plans will be terminated when it is clear they have not been. DALPA needs to put stipulations in the agreement forcing DL to reopen the contract if the plans are terminated - not assume they have been and bake costs into the proposal that assumes they have been.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

You know what WORLD TRAVELER ???

Your obviously an opinionated DUDE(like a lot of US)(just that your style is rather unique)(and that does'nt make you a BAD person) !!

BUT, obviously, your a pretty Inteligent guy.

My Dilemma is trying to understand HOW an Intelligent guy CANNOT(OR CHOOSE's TO NOT) understand that the DL pilots joined a Union, for times just like these.

It's not that DALPA people don't care about other employees, IT's because in time of WAR, you take care of your own platoon FIRST !

ASK any US(combat) MARINE, if you don't believe me.

DALPA has "ZERO" obligation to anyone but their fellow pilots,
AND,
To suggest that they are being "horrible people"(by you and others), "just does'nt FLUSH" !!!!!!!!!!!!

In life, the only person YOU cannot fool, is YOU !

AND in this instance, THAT is what your TRYING to do !!

NH/BB's

 

[WorldTraveler]

I'm fully aware of your point, NHBB, and I agree with you. Problem is that the ROI on all of those pilot dues is getting worse and worse. DL pilots can support their union as long as labor is willing to expect that there will be some years where they will make progress but, more often than not, labor will suffer setbacks. That is not a uniquely airline phenomenon but is true of American unionized labor as a whole. Airlines are now just taking advantage of the opportunity to reduce the premium which airline employees have made relative to those in other industries. It's pure economics and the airlines are in the driver's seat now.

 

[NewHampshire Black Bears]

I'm fully aware of your point, NHBB, and I agree with you. Problem is that the ROI on all of those pilot dues is getting worse and worse. DL pilots can support their union as long as labor is willing to expect that there will be some years where they will make progress but, more often than not, labor will suffer setbacks. That is not a uniquely airline phenomenon but is true of American unionized labor as a whole. Airlines are now just taking advantage of the opportunity to reduce the premium which airline employees have made relative to those in other industries. It's pure economics and the airlines are in the driver's seat now.

=======================================================

Fair enough World Traveler !!

BUT....Can I take your last post to mean that NEVER AGAIN, WILL YOU MENTION THE "POOR OTHER NON-UNION DL PEOPLE
in the same post that your discussing DALPA ??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????


NH/BB's

 

[Busdrvr]

I'm fully aware of your point, NHBB, and I agree with you. Problem is that the ROI on all of those pilot dues is getting worse and worse. DL pilots can support their union as long as labor is willing to expect that there will be some years where they will make progress but, more often than not, labor will suffer setbacks. That is not a uniquely airline phenomenon but is true of American unionized labor as a whole. Airlines are now just taking advantage of the opportunity to reduce the premium which airline employees have made relative to those in other industries. It's pure economics and the airlines are in the driver's seat now.

In all honesty, I'm of the opinion that the significant investment (decades) of time and work into becomming an Airline Pilot at DAL is resulting in pilot working for LESS than what comparable skills, investment, and individual quality would be paid in other industries. Case in point, I attend school on the side, and two friends who will graduate with a Master's soon (school has a PhD in the same field also) have already been offered a 6 figure STARTING salary that is in excess of what DAL is offering a 12th year 777 F/O. I'd be willing to bet that 80% of the current pilot population would have pursued other careers had they known what the pay and benefits would fall to in this profession. A clear indication of this can be seen by the abysmal rate of recall acceptance at UAL. The company has apparently had to call 3 furloughees to get 1 to show up. When pilots are forced to examine other options, the profession becomes less and less attractive. I'm curious though, when this results in a real drop in safety 10 years from now, who will you blame?

 

[savyinvestor]

Prior to pilot pay and benefits being cut pilots would say that " I do this for the love of flying". Now your saying it doesn't pay enough and it takes 3 recalls to get 1 back. Which is it? Most folks would be more than happy with pilot pay and quality of life issues. Not trying to pick a fight just my opinion. Savy

 

[767jetz]

Prior to pilot pay and benefits being cut pilots would say that " I do this for the love of flying". Now your saying it doesn't pay enough and it takes 3 recalls to get 1 back. Which is it? Most folks would be more than happy with pilot pay and quality of life issues. Not trying to pick a fight just my opinion. Savy

It's simply a matter of what people consider a reasonable return on their investment/responsibility/skill. Many people love what they do for a living (including pilots), and when they are paid at a level they consider fair, it reflects in their satisfaction level. If you keep cutting that same person's income, eventually you reach a point where the person says, "I love what I do, but not enough to accept this low level of compensation." We're reaching that point now.

 

[Ch. 12]

=======================================================

Fair enough World Traveler !!

BUT....Can I take your last post to mean that NEVER AGAIN, WILL YOU MENTION THE "POOR OTHER NON-UNION DL PEOPLE
in the same post that your discussing DALPA ??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
NH/BB's

NHBB-

With all due respect, this is the DELTA board and I think it's completely relevant to mention all employees of DL. To understand the issues in full context, you have to consider all involved. The context of DL's situation is that they are weak and getting weaker...and that affects all employees alike.

IIRC, there used to be a union-only board here but I think that it got a little too heated (imagine that! ) and I don't see it around anymore.