Industry-leading TA reached!
- Thread starter AdAstraPerAspera
- Start date
So you have to clean planes when you aren't getting paid?silverbird007 said:
I could never understand how you guys agreed to get paid by flight time when you have to report for work and start working at least an hour prior to that. It hurts your ability to negotiate a fair wage because that four hour flight could easily be 8 hours of work so instead of making $40/hr like the company dumps out to the Press you are really only earning $20/hr. Then you have to factor in that they don't get you home every night, that lowers your real earnings for hours worked even more.
If I have to work outside my station I get paid from the time I punch in at JFK till the time I get back and punch out, or I don't go. So if they want me to fix a plane in Bangor, or Toronto or some other out of the way place I get paid straight through. If I didn't then why go? Even with that since we no longer get double-time more and more guys are saying no thanks to field trips. They have tried to break us off the clock and send us to a hotel, but we tell them if you want us to break time then send us a plane to go home. I'll go to a Hotel but not on my time. (The exception to that is training, we get paid for travel time and our regular shift but not time at the Hotel)
With the technology they have today there is no reason why you guys can't badge in at your original station and badge out when you have deboarded everyone off the aircraft. This would be a better reflection of hours worked than flight time. With mechanics feeling the way they do, due to the fact that we are at the very bottom of the industry in pay, benefits and workerules, I think that delays and cancellations will become more commonplace so capturing this time should be a priority.
I'll admit I don't know whats in your deal. I think Laura Gladding steered your group through bankruptcy with minimal damage. But to me there are two things that would drive a NO vote from me if it was an "Industry Leading contract" for us. One would be term of the agreement. Does this TA extend the agreement beyond 2018? If the answer is YES then I would vote no. Long contracts are never good contracts, especially when signed under unfavorable conditions. Second, Is there profit sharing in the agreement? While I'm not a big fan of profit sharing in exchange for tangible gains I believe the industry is headed for several years of record breaking profits and I don't think signing a deal that excludes us from those gains is a good deal especially when we were stuck with profit sharing for a decade of concessions where we never received a penny. Its foolish to walk away from it now when they are poised to show record profits.boston said:
Question, what was on the table as far as the 401K?
I think that you are not as replaceable as you think you are. I recall Delta bragging that they had thousands of applications and only a few openings. Well there are millions who are unemployed and only a few thousand bothered to fill out an application for Delta, so millions would rather remain unemployed than become a delta flight attendant. One of every twelve American citizens is a felon, so they are automatically excluded from employment in the airlines, thats a huge swath of the population and likely an even larger swath of the unemployed. Then factor in other requirements, dual languages, good health, willingness to sleep in strange hotels all the time and be away from family, ability to train and pass tests and the pool just keeps on shrinking. While I agree FAs are more easily replaced than Pilots or mechanics they are not easily replaced, if they were AA would have done so in 1992 when the APFA struck. The pool of replacements does not get bigger as the size of the company increases, finding 24500 replacement Flight attendants would be more than twice as difficult as finding 12000 replacement flight attendants.AdAstraPerAspera said:
You have more leverage than you think, if you stick together. The sheer size of the airline (the the FA workforce) makes it that much harder to replace you.
As I said I don't know if this is the best deal you can expect to see, but if I see obvious misinformation either way I will question it.
Market Rate.
Now that AA is no longer in BK and earning very healthy profits is it really necessary to allow AA to define the "Market" by using only the carriers that AA currently wants to compare themselves to? For decades their comparisons included SWA and that was at a time where there was pretty much zero direct competition between them. Shouldn't SWA also be considered to be part of the "market"?
If the NMB is allowing SWA to use rates at AA, US , UAL and CAL in their determination of "Market Rates" then how could they then turn around and rule that SWA is not factored into the Market rate at AA? (for mechanics the same applies to Fed Ex and UPS)
I have serious doubts that once SWA is factored in that the current AA deal, which extends the contract till 2020 is really $82 million above a comprehensive market rate. After SWA is factored in its likely well below market rate.
As I said, I don't know what the APFA agreed to, did they agree that in all negotiations going forward that AA can define the comparators used to define "Market Rates" in arbitration? Yes this isn't section six, but its not 1113 either. Will the APFA be able to argue that SWA is part of the market, has with the exception of bankruptcy negotiations always been part of the Market and must be considered part of the market? Whats at stake here is $2 billion in synergies, is the $84 million a fair share when you consider that without the synergies they are already earning billions in profits? AA is losing money every day that you operate as separate entities so its not like they are just handing over $82 million. Why not at least get Profit sharing, that costs them nothing?
If this is argument possible then I would say VOTE NO because you don't want to be locked into what is still a concessionary deal (that started in 2003) till 2020 and there is no profit sharing. This agreement will damage every flight attendant in the Industry, including the SWA flight attendants because you know if they end up in front of the NMB, even with SWA reporting billions in profits, (as will AA, UA and Delta), when the NMB looks to determine the Market rate that rate will include not only SWA, but AA, UA & DL. The fact is that SWA was included by AA when in reality they were not a major competitor, with over 500 planes and service into Airports such as LGA, MCO, etc etc there is no way that they can claim that they aren't a competitor in the market now.
From a quick look at the highlites (and admitted not fully understood) what I see is higher hourly rates , which is a sure thing, offset by less paid vacation, and no profit sharing. The profit sharing is not a sure thing, but it is a very likely thing and will likely, when combined with less vacation greatly offset the "Industry Lead". In 2013 Delta workers got $500 million in profit sharing, flight attendants probably got 25% or $125 million of that, it will likely be even more this year, was that factored into the market rate? If not then bottom line this is not an industry leading contract.
The bigger issue is that it extends the concessions of 2003, and the huge lag behind SWA, till 2020.
From what I can see they need to go back and take off the extra time to the term and add profit sharing.
kirkpatrick
Veteran
Bob, the "lag" between AA and SW isn't as bad as most think. SW is paid on a mileage bases, per "trip" which historically dates back to when they only flew DAL-HOU. We pick up time and are guaranteed actual or scheduled, whichever is greater, which closes the gap some. Besides, few of us would want their "efficient" work rules, meaning efficient for the company. I, for one, will take our TA over their contract any time.
MK
MK
jimntx
Veteran
Amen! Let's not forget that the f/as at WN clean the airplane every leg. And, 5 leg days are not uncommon. The most I've ever seen at AA is 4 leg days. And, we only clean on the mid-station of a through flight, and the inbound leg is less than 1100 miles. For instance LAX-DFW-MEM with the same flight number, we would not clean because the LAX-DFW leg is too long. MEM-DFW-LAX with the same flight number, we would clean at DFW.
That being said, I haven't seen a through flight in over a year. When they started having to use the same flight number on turns--i.e., DFW-DEN-DFW, both legs are numbered the same--the through flights just seemed to disappear. I'm not saying their not happening, I just haven't seen any at DFW.
That being said, I haven't seen a through flight in over a year. When they started having to use the same flight number on turns--i.e., DFW-DEN-DFW, both legs are numbered the same--the through flights just seemed to disappear. I'm not saying their not happening, I just haven't seen any at DFW.
WorldTraveler
Corn Field
- Dec 5, 2003
- 21,709
- 10,662
- Banned
- #116
some sources are saying the proposed contract was not approved?
can anyone here confirm?
can anyone here confirm?
For us its a different story. Our hourly pay is around $10/hr less, our 401k is less than half, we get less vacation, less Holidays, less sick, no double time etc. We are probably close to 40% below SWA in total compensation.kirkpatrick said:
As I said Laura did a good job steering you through BK, hopefully she didn't screw up the deal by giving up too much to get rid of Horton.
You guys should keep in mind that UAL is under an amendable (expired) contract, so is SWA. So saying you are industry leading when they have yet to strike a deal is setting yourself up to be bottom of the industry for five years, with no profit sharing to soften the sting.
Still think you guys need to get profit sharing.
Apparently only one third of the membership was in favor of the deal.
Had it passed, and UAL signed just above you, a year from now I suspect that you would have a hard time finding a YES voter. When AA becomes a $50 billion a year company with a 10% margin those who are locked out of the gains won't be too happy.
I admit a selfish motive for you guys to go for Profit sharing. If you guys go without Profit sharing it would make it that much harder for us to get it as well. Why do you think FWAAA is so interested, more for him if you get nothing.
