Industry-leading TA reached!

[topDawg]

For us its a different story. Our hourly pay is around $10/hr less, our 401k is less than half, we get less vacation, less Holidays, less sick, no double time etc. We are probably close to 40% below SWA in total compensation. 
As I said Laura did a good job steering you through BK, hopefully she didn't screw up the deal by giving up too much to get rid of Horton. 
 
 
You guys should keep in mind that UAL is under an amendable (expired) contract, so is SWA. So saying you are industry leading when they have yet to strike a deal is setting yourself up to be bottom of the industry for five years, with no profit sharing to soften the sting. 
 
Still think you guys need to get profit sharing. 
 
Apparently only one third of the membership was in favor of the deal. 
 
Had it passed, and UAL signed just above you, a year from now I suspect that you would have a hard time finding a YES voter. When AA becomes a $50 billion a year company with a 10% margin those who are locked out of the gains won't be too happy. 
 
I admit a selfish motive for you guys to go for Profit sharing. If you guys go without Profit sharing it would make it that much harder for us to get it as well. Why do you think FWAAA is so interested, more for him if you get nothing. 

this is a stupid argument. 
 
being at the "bottom" when you are making say a buck less, isn't a bad deal. If you constantly expect to be at the top of the industry every year then your in big trouble. 
 
Now the AA FA's can bet on making a lot less than Delta......

 

[bigjets]

For us its a different story. Our hourly pay is around $10/hr less, our 401k is less than half, we get less vacation, less Holidays, less sick, no double time etc. We are probably close to 40% below SWA in total compensation. 
As I said Laura did a good job steering you through BK, hopefully she didn't screw up the deal by giving up too much to get rid of Horton. 
 
 
You guys should keep in mind that UAL is under an amendable (expired) contract, so is SWA. So saying you are industry leading when they have yet to strike a deal is setting yourself up to be bottom of the industry for five years, with no profit sharing to soften the sting. 
 
Still think you guys need to get profit sharing. 
 
Apparently only one third of the membership was in favor of the deal. 
 
Had it passed, and UAL signed just above you, a year from now I suspect that you would have a hard time finding a YES voter. When AA becomes a $50 billion a year company with a 10% margin those who are locked out of the gains won't be too happy. 
 
I admit a selfish motive for you guys to go for Profit sharing. If you guys go without Profit sharing it would make it that much harder for us to get it as well. Why do you think FWAAA is so interested, more for him if you get nothing.

It sounds like you want a contract where you will always get a raise if some other airline pays their employees more and you want profit sharing and you want the best work rules and in the FAs case be able not to work at AA for months on end and still be employed.

Please tell me you're not part of the negotiating team. You sound like michele Bachman trying to negotiate with Nancy pelosi.

 

[FWAAA]

for 300 spots Delta had more applications (25K) than FAs on the list at the time (around 20K) 
 
I wouldn't say that's "only a few thousand"

Exactly. DL received 22,000 applications for 300 openings in 2012, and more than 100,000 applications for 1,000 openings in late 2010:

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-12-21/delta-gets-22-000-applications-for-300-flight-attendant-jobs.html

Similar thing at AA, where 1,500 openings attracted more than 20,000 applications before AA cut off the applications early:

http://www.dallasnews.com/business/airline-industry/20121115-american-airlines-attracts-more-than-20000-applicants-for-flight-attendant-jobs.ece

AA, UA, DL, NW and US didn't hire very many FAs for about a decade, so it wasn't surprising to see hundreds of applications for every opening once they finally opened the spigot again.

 

[Duke787]

So you have to clean planes when you aren't getting paid?
 
I could never understand how you guys agreed to get paid by flight time when you have to report for work and start working at least an hour prior to that. It hurts your ability to negotiate a fair wage because that four hour flight could easily be 8 hours of work so instead of making $40/hr like the company dumps out to the Press you are really only earning $20/hr. Then you have to factor in that they don't get you home every night, that lowers your real earnings for hours worked even more. 
 
If I have to work outside my station I get paid from the time I punch in at JFK till the time I get back and punch out, or I don't go. So if they want me to fix a plane in Bangor, or Toronto or some other out of the way place I get paid straight through. If I didn't then why go? Even with that since we no longer get double-time more and more guys are saying no thanks to field trips. They have tried to break us off the clock and send us to a hotel, but we tell them if you want us to break time then send us a plane to go home. I'll go to a Hotel but not on my time. (The exception to that is training, we get paid for travel time and our regular shift but not time at the Hotel) 
 
With the technology they have today there is no reason why you guys can't badge in at your original station and badge out when you have deboarded everyone off the aircraft. This would be a better reflection of hours worked than flight time. With mechanics feeling the way they do, due to the fact that we are at the very bottom of the industry in pay, benefits and workerules, I think that delays and cancellations will become more commonplace so capturing this time should be a priority.

So you have to clean planes when you aren't getting paid?
 
I could never understand how you guys agreed to get paid by flight time when you have to report for work and start working at least an hour prior to that. It hurts your ability to negotiate a fair wage because that four hour flight could easily be 8 hours of work so instead of making $40/hr like the company dumps out to the Press you are really only earning $20/hr. Then you have to factor in that they don't get you home every night, that lowers your real earnings for hours worked even more. 
 
If I have to work outside my station I get paid from the time I punch in at JFK till the time I get back and punch out, or I don't go. So if they want me to fix a plane in Bangor, or Toronto or some other out of the way place I get paid straight through. If I didn't then why go? Even with that since we no longer get double-time more and more guys are saying no thanks to field trips. They have tried to break us off the clock and send us to a hotel, but we tell them if you want us to break time then send us a plane to go home. I'll go to a Hotel but not on my time. (The exception to that is training, we get paid for travel time and our regular shift but not time at the Hotel) 
 
With the technology they have today there is no reason why you guys can't badge in at your original station and badge out when you have deboarded everyone off the aircraft. This would be a better reflection of hours worked than flight time. With mechanics feeling the way they do, due to the fact that we are at the very bottom of the industry in pay, benefits and workerules, I think that delays and cancellations will become more commonplace so capturing this time should be a priority.

It's good thing there are no mental midgets like you there. The FAs have had an enviable contract for a long time, in their contract they had a trip trade to have max amount of flexibility, paid 1/2 for the same health insurance until BK. they make $55 a flt hour, jumpseat privledges for themselves that's why we will never get those same privledges. do you think they're going to get $55 an hour for their before trip sign and debrief time, when no pilot even gets that. there is no such thing as the perfect contract only the best deal possible contract.

It would be nice if we had everything we all wanted in each contract but that isn't going to happen, not even the SWA employees are completely happy with their contracts.

I'm going to have to run for office just so we can get a decent contract instead of your proven moronic view of consistent negotiations until you don't get anything

 

[Duke787]

Just to stay on topic, from the FA s I talked to I gather the problems were they want profit sharing,and there was a mixture of they didn't like the hard 40 (the less informed) and sense Parker moved on the hard 40, there was more room to negotiate a better deal.

 

[IORFA]

Even the union said the pay raises so far were more than any possible profit sharing payout this year. The pay would have been 401K match/contribution able as well. Thus even more money AND the best part, would have come twice a month! Personally, even though it is bad for all. I hope AA comes back with exactly what the union said would happen, except I hope the "hard 40" turns into having to fly the line you are awarded. No dropping below that. Be it 70 hours or more. Then maybe they morons will see the consequences to their actions. They are so smart and all. Besides the fact, even if we are lucky and the company just gives us what 16 people too many decided was bad. We still lost because that will be at least 2 months we don't get to enjoy the extra $$$. People need to trust the economists and the union when it comes to $. Obviously, most aren't smart enough to comprehend large figures and the concept of compounding! The junior people just screwed themselves as well, since I'm sure step 14 and 15 are all most assuredly coming back to pay scale. That's right, I hope they even spread it out to make it take longer to top out. Stupid is as stupid does. Here's some money, nah, I'm poor and I can't except that much money. It is too much! MORONS!!!!

 

[jimntx]

So you have to clean planes when you aren't getting paid?
 
I could never understand how you guys agreed to get paid by flight time when you have to report for work and start working at least an hour prior to that. It hurts your ability to negotiate a fair wage because that four hour flight could easily be 8 hours of work so instead of making $40/hr like the company dumps out to the Press you are really only earning $20/hr. Then you have to factor in that they don't get you home every night, that lowers your real earnings for hours worked even more. 
 
If I have to work outside my station I get paid from the time I punch in at JFK till the time I get back and punch out, or I don't go. So if they want me to fix a plane in Bangor, or Toronto or some other out of the way place I get paid straight through. If I didn't then why go? Even with that since we no longer get double-time more and more guys are saying no thanks to field trips. They have tried to break us off the clock and send us to a hotel, but we tell them if you want us to break time then send us a plane to go home. I'll go to a Hotel but not on my time. (The exception to that is training, we get paid for travel time and our regular shift but not time at the Hotel) 
 
With the technology they have today there is no reason why you guys can't badge in at your original station and badge out when you have deboarded everyone off the aircraft. This would be a better reflection of hours worked than flight time. With mechanics feeling the way they do, due to the fact that we are at the very bottom of the industry in pay, benefits and workerules, I think that delays and cancellations will become more commonplace so capturing this time should be a priority.

Bob, it is not a case of pilots or f/as "agreeing" to anything.  It's a legal precedent--a shameful one, but precedent nonetheless.  We are not paid until the door closes and the a/c begins pushback because of the Railway Labor Act under which we all work.  In the 20's or 30's when the RLA was passed, there were Pullman cars on passenger trains.  They were staffed with all African-American men.  The railroads got the courts to agree that there was no need to pay the Pullman porters while the train was in the station because "they were only helping passengers on and off the train with their luggage, and they got tipped for that by the passenger."  (Ever seen a steamer trunk which were common for travelers on long trips in those days?  There is no chance today you would get a "it fit in the overhead on my last flight" argument even from the most self-centered passenger.)
 
The airlines use the same precedent to avoid paying us "while the train is in the station."
 
The airlines fight vigorously to maintain this legal precedent.  It would be very expensive to lose it.  Think about the fact that under our (f/a) contract the minimum duty day is 5 flight hours--even if you are only flying from DFW to AUS and back.  Assuming $45/hr that's $225 for one f/a and the smallest mainline a/c requires 3 f/as under the FARs.  To have to start paying f/as and pilots for that hour prior to departure we have to be on site would increase the cost of the minimum duty day for a/c staff by at least 20%.  (I don't know the minimum duty day for pilots, but I imagine it's 5 hours or more.)
 
Oh, and no real need to worry about after the flight.  The clock does not stop until 15 minutes after the door opens; so, we pretty much get paid for deplaning.  It's called debriefing; though, in my vast career of almost 13 years I'm fairly certain that I've been debriefed only 2 or 3 times when there was a major medical, mechanical, or passenger disturbance event during flight.

 

[Duke787]

For us its a different story. Our hourly pay is around $10/hr less, our 401k is less than half, we get less vacation, less Holidays, less sick, no double time etc. We are probably close to 40% below SWA in total compensation. 
As I said Laura did a good job steering you through BK, hopefully she didn't screw up the deal by giving up too much to get rid of Horton. 
 
 
You guys should keep in mind that UAL is under an amendable (expired) contract, so is SWA. So saying you are industry leading when they have yet to strike a deal is setting yourself up to be bottom of the industry for five years, with no profit sharing to soften the sting. 
 
Still think you guys need to get profit sharing. 
 
Apparently only one third of the membership was in favor of the deal. 
 
Had it passed, and UAL signed just above you, a year from now I suspect that you would have a hard time finding a YES voter. When AA becomes a $50 billion a year company with a 10% margin those who are locked out of the gains won't be too happy. 
 
I admit a selfish motive for you guys to go for Profit sharing. If you guys go without Profit sharing it would make it that much harder for us to get it as well. Why do you think FWAAA is so interested, more for him if you get nothing.

Wow based on your thought process you would not vote for the 2001 agreement. You are a danger to our future financial well being with your juvenile view of NEGOTIATIONS.

No Union for me thank you, not with these kind of people effecting my future. I can't believe I HAVE to pay for this representation, and my Union dues are paying for a know it all

8000 not voting ....... Wow make them work 40 hours then. Thanks for the education jim

 

[kirkpatrick]

FWAAA, receiving thousands of applications for the FA position isn't new.  I was told in 1972 that a hundred people had been turned down so I could be hired.  Even with low starting pay and top pay that isn't all that great, the lure of travel and benefits draws a lot of attention.
 
MK

 

[jimntx]

Even the union said the pay raises so far were more than any possible profit sharing payout this year. The pay would have been 401K match/contribution able as well. Thus even more money AND the best part, would have come twice a month! Personally, even though it is bad for all. I hope AA comes back with exactly what the union said would happen, except I hope the "hard 40" turns into having to fly the line you are awarded. No dropping below that. Be it 70 hours or more. Then maybe they morons will see the consequences to their actions. They are so smart and all. Besides the fact, even if we are lucky and the company just gives us what 16 people too many decided was bad. We still lost because that will be at least 2 months we don't get to enjoy the extra $$$. People need to trust the economists and the union when it comes to $. Obviously, most aren't smart enough to comprehend large figures and the concept of compounding! The junior people just screwed themselves as well, since I'm sure step 14 and 15 are all most assuredly coming back to pay scale. That's right, I hope they even spread it out to make it take longer to top out. Stupid is as stupid does. Here's some money, nah, I'm poor and I can't except that much money. It is too much! MORONS!!!!

+100.  As I posted elsewhere, if this gets to arbitration, some of the anti-hard40s are going to be surprised.  The arbitrator (as with other normal people) will more than likely have a hard time accepting the concept (or seeing the value) of an employee who only comes to work when the employee wants to; yet, still maintains seniority and benefits.

 

[Bob Owens]

for 300 spots Delta had more applications (25K) than FAs on the list at the time (around 20K) 
 
I wouldn't say that's "only a few thousand" 

15 million people unemployed and Delta got 25000 applications. I could have been one of those 25000. So that means that 99.9% of those with no job at all didn't bother applying to be a Delta flight attendant. 
 
25K applicants is not 25K qualified applicants. 

 

[Bob Owens]

+100.  As I posted elsewhere, if this gets to arbitration, some of the anti-hard40s are going to be surprised.  The arbitrator (as with other normal people) will more than likely have a hard time accepting the concept (or seeing the value) of an employee who only comes to work when the employee wants to; yet, still maintains seniority and benefits.

Is this hard 40 a good thing or bad thing for the profession? Sounds to me like not having it it facilitates those who want the job as a part time gig and don't really need it, thats bad for the profession. 

 

[Bob Owens]

Bob, it is not a case of pilots or f/as "agreeing" to anything.  It's a legal precedent--a shameful one, but precedent nonetheless.  We are not paid until the door closes and the a/c begins pushback because of the Railway Labor Act under which we all work.  In the 20's or 30's when the RLA was passed, there were Pullman cars on passenger trains.  They were staffed with all African-American men.  The railroads got the courts to agree that there was no need to pay the Pullman porters while the train was in the station because "they were only helping passengers on and off the train with their luggage, and they got tipped for that by the passenger."  (Ever seen a steamer trunk which were common for travelers on long trips in those days?  There is no chance today you would get a "it fit in the overhead on my last flight" argument even from the most self-centered passenger.)
 
The airlines use the same precedent to avoid paying us "while the train is in the station."
 
The airlines fight vigorously to maintain this legal precedent.  It would be very expensive to lose it.  Think about the fact that under our (f/a) contract the minimum duty day is 5 flight hours--even if you are only flying from DFW to AUS and back.  Assuming $45/hr that's $225 for one f/a and the smallest mainline a/c requires 3 f/as under the FARs.  To have to start paying f/as and pilots for that hour prior to departure we have to be on site would increase the cost of the minimum duty day for a/c staff by at least 20%.  (I don't know the minimum duty day for pilots, but I imagine it's 5 hours or more.)
 
Oh, and no real need to worry about after the flight.  The clock does not stop until 15 minutes after the door opens; so, we pretty much get paid for deplaning.  It's called debriefing; though, in my vast career of almost 13 years I'm fairly certain that I've been debriefed only 2 or 3 times when there was a major medical, mechanical, or passenger disturbance event during flight.

Never saw anyone tip a Flight attendant. Is it allowed?

 

[737823]

Most F/As would be offended.

Josh

 

[Bob Owens]

I'm going to have to run for office just so we can get a decent contract instead of your proven moronic view of consistent negotiations until you don't get anything

Please do, then we can all see what your peers really think of you and your opinions.