IAM Withdraws NMB Election Application

[WeAAsles]

Simple question, simple answer. I prefer to not pay a 3rd party, that usually puts itself before their members and is, in my eyes, no better than the corporations they infiltrate, because of that fact! One union, in particular, in this topic, actually performed struck work.....wtf?
Having a union, does not guarantee that you will keep your job until you desire to leave it, as seen many times through BK's in the industry!
A unions #1 job is just like a politicians.........remain in power, at all cost's!
Now please refute any of the above claims as false.

Your feelings and mine about organized labor or Unions is already well established. So neither of us need to rehash.

What I asked was simple but I'll make it even more so. Would you prefer to have an employment contract with the company you work for even if that contract was negotiated by yourself and your employer and agreed to (or) do you prefer your employment status to remain at will and subject to the whim either good or bad of that corporation or individual who requests your services?

Contract (Legal Document) or Handshake (No Legal Document)????

Simple enough for you to now comprehend?

 

[Glenn Quagmire]

You are asking for two very distinct things from southwind. Simple, and comprehend. They are not necessarily related in his world.

 

[southwind]

Your feelings and mine about organized labor or Unions is already well established. So neither of us need to rehash.
What I asked was simple but I'll make it even more so. Would you prefer to have an employment contract with the company you work for even if that contract was negotiated by yourself and your employer and agreed to (or) do you prefer your employment status to remain at will and subject to the whim either good or bad of that corporation or individual who requests your services?
Contract (Legal Document) or Handshake (No Legal Document)????
Simple enough for you to now comprehend?

Seems like many here can't figure out whether I'm pro or anti union so maybe this will clarify.
If I could negotiate a contract, on my own, without a 3rd party with their hands in my wallet, I would.
If I were given the choice of paying a 3rd party, in order to gain employment vs. gaining employment on my own, I would take the latter.

And Kev, maybe since your so disgruntled with your employer, you might need to find another job with union representation in tact, since.the IAM has screwed up one election and no ones heard a peep about a ramp vote in the last 3 years!

 

[WeAAsles]

Seems like many here can't figure out whether I'm pro or anti union so maybe this will clarify.

If I could negotiate a contract, on my own, without a 3rd party with their hands in my wallet, I would.
If I were given the choice of paying a 3rd party, in order to gain employment vs. gaining employment on my own, I would take the latter.

And Kev, maybe since your so disgruntled with your employer, you might need to find another job with union representation in tact, since.the IAM has screwed up one election and no ones heard a peep about a ramp vote in the last 3 years!

Alright I got the answer I was looking for. Your preference is YES to having a contract over what you currently have. BUT you cannot negotiate a contract on your own with your current employer because as an individual you simply are not valuable enough for them to make that commitment to you. As a collective yes you would have that value to the corporation for your services.

The third party answer is interesting. So ok. You don't have the ability to negotiate an employment contract for yourself and even if you could hire someone to do so for you (Forget managing that contract for a moment) you would decline because you would have to pay them for their services. (When you get married don't you have to sign a Legal agreement and isn't there a cost associated with that)

Now yes in a Union I do pay monthly for the continuing management and enforcement of my contract. The reason that is is because as a collective there is always a need to keep the Union in service to argue issues related to my CBA. (If I had an individual contract I wouldn't need to keep an ongoing legal consultant)

The reality is that it appears you're cheap and don't understand how your finances are allocated. Multiple items are deducted from your paycheck and each serves it's own purpose. Medical, Dental, 401K, Child Support. Medical and dental are insurance. You may not even use them that year but it is a comfort to know that they're there in case you do. 

But now let's just focus on MY dues and how I look at it financially. I work 160 hours per month. My dues are 2 hours so that leaves me 158 hours that much of that focuses on other payments. Now let's say I were like you and abhorred Unions as a simple matter of ideological principle (Although I highly doubt the issue was even a thought when you applied for a job) If I work 1 hour and 20 minutes of Overtime (Unions secured that for you BTW) in that month those dues that I pay out are negated. I can think to myself screw the Union, I got my money back from those thieving bastards.

I think from just reading many of your posts the reason you also have a deep seeded hatred for Unions is a self determined fear that they will cause nothing but death and destruction for the company you work for that pays your salary? History in this industry HAS shown that both Unions and the Company when they don't work together in a cooperative manner CAN be devastating. BUT taking your airline into consideration it's quite obvious that it doesn't have to be that way if BOTH sides chose for it not to be.

How quickly your organized Pilot group and the company have been able to come to agreements is the proof positive. Unions, employees, management, the BOD, contractors, and lenders all need to work together for the success of the company if they ALL want to share in the fruits of that success. 

Anyway you stick to your ideology. A particular ideology can be a good thing sometimes if you're able to really think about it and how it's supporting you. Personally I prefer to balance my ideology with my pocket. At least for me it's worked out pretty well so far.
 

 

[WeAAsles]

BTW Southwind what if a third party came to you and was able to let you know that they could secure you a job guaranteed making TWICE the money you are currently but there would be a service charge that you need to pay in order to get the information as to where that job is located and who you would be working for. 

Would you really refuse to pay that service charge if you knew the job was almost a guaranteed position and you'd love working there?

 

[southwind]

Again, spin it however you want to, I DO NOT want to be associated with a union.....period!
Can't get any simpler than that!

 

[southwind]

Alright I got the answer I was looking for. Your preference is YES to having a contract over what you currently have. BUT you cannot negotiate a contract on your own with your current employer because as an individual you simply are not valuable enough for them to make that commitment to you. As a collective yes you would have that value to the corporation for your services.
The third party answer is interesting. So ok. You don't have the ability to negotiate an employment contract for yourself and even if you could hire someone to do so for you (Forget managing that contract for a moment) you would decline because you would have to pay them for their services. (When you get married don't you have to sign a Legal agreement and isn't there a cost associated with that)
Now yes in a Union I do pay monthly for the continuing management and enforcement of my contract. The reason that is is because as a collective there is always a need to keep the Union in service to argue issues related to my CBA. (If I had an individual contract I wouldn't need to keep an ongoing legal consultant)
The reality is that it appears you're cheap and don't understand how your finances are allocated. Multiple items are deducted from your paycheck and each serves it's own purpose. Medical, Dental, 401K, Child Support. Medical and dental are insurance. You may not even use them that year but it is a comfort to know that they're there in case you do. 
But now let's just focus on MY dues and how I look at it financially. I work 160 hours per month. My dues are 2 hours so that leaves me 158 hours that much of that focuses on other payments. Now let's say I were like you and abhorred Unions as a simple matter of ideological principle (Although I highly doubt the issue was even a thought when you applied for a job) If I work 1 hour and 20 minutes of Overtime (Unions secured that for you BTW) in that month those dues that I pay out are negated. I can think to myself screw the Union, I got my money back from those thieving bastards.
I think from just reading many of your posts the reason you also have a deep seeded hatred for Unions is a self determined fear that they will cause nothing but death and destruction for the company you work for that pays your salary? History in this industry HAS shown that both Unions and the Company when they don't work together in a cooperative manner CAN be devastating. BUT taking your airline into consideration it's quite obvious that it doesn't have to be that way if BOTH sides chose for it not to be.
How quickly your organized Pilot group and the company have been able to come to agreements is the proof positive. Unions, employees, management, the BOD, contractors, and lenders all need to work together for the success of the company if they ALL want to share in the fruits of that success. 
Anyway you stick to your ideology. A particular ideology can be a good thing sometimes if you're able to really think about it and how it's supporting you. Personally I prefer to balance my ideology with my pocket. At least for me it's worked out pretty well so far.

Wow, you tell me to keep it simple, then come back with a 20 page dissertation ?
What part of "NO UNION" do you not understand?

 

[southwind]

BTW Southwind what if a third party came to you and was able to let you know that they could secure you a job guaranteed making TWICE the money you are currently but there would be a service charge that you need to pay in order to get the information as to where that job is located and who you would be working for. 
Would you really refuse to pay that service charge if you knew the job was almost a guaranteed position and you'd love working there?

And just like a politician, Unions will promise you the moon and the stars.

 

[WeAAsles]

Again, spin it however you want to, I DO NOT want to be associated with a union.....period!
Can't get any simpler than that!

Do you have a reading comprehension issue? Here let me post this article for you.
 
But what exactly is a German-style works council?  Professor Sachs already recommended reading Joel Rogers and Wolfgang Streeck’s excellent summaryhttp://http//www.nber.org/chapters/c11554.pdf.  Thomas Geoghegan, an American labor lawyer, also wrote a summary geared towards a popular audience in Harper’s Magazine. 
Rogers & Streeck define works councils as “institutionalized bodies for representative communication between a single employer” and their employees.  A works council represents all of the workers at that workplace – regardless of whether those workers are union members.  
A union might co-exist with a works council at a given workplace.  Rogers & Streeck outline the types of conflicts or collaboration that might exist between the work council and the union as they negotiate their respective role in advocating for workers at a given workplace, but one division of labor is pre-set: works councils do not negotiate for wages or benefits, and do not call strikes.  Professor Sachs outlinedhttp://onlabor.org/2013/09/12/a-works-council-in-chattanooga/ Rogers & Streeck’s typology of works councils:
“Paternalistic councils (designed mainly to prevent unionization), consultative councils (intended to improve communication between management and workers and thus to enhance economic competitiveness), and representative councils (formed to “enable workers to assert distributional . . . interests”).”

http://onlabor.org/2013/09/23/an-explainer-what-are-german-style-works-councils/

Now I've heard that currently Delta has something that they consider to already be similar to this except from many things I've read it is not very effective and is only designed as an illusion that you have some measure of control over your workplace issues "Open Door Policy" The ODP is also something designed to make you feel good. Unless what you say behind that actually closed door benefits the company in some way it's rare that it will even be considered. Safety issues are a prime example. Safety issues are usually only addressed after an incident occurs and are rarely proactive unless it is under an OSHA advisement. Some safety issues are only enacted because of the workers comp claims that need to be paid out and the cost (used to be) tremendous. Over the last dozen years or so though workers comp laws have been under attack so safety in the workplace may begin to suffer?

Either way you want to cut it the reality is simple. You have no real advocates for your group and because of that you have nothing more than a silent voice.

And I 100% prefer a Union over a works council or any advocacy group illusion myself. 



 

 

[WeAAsles]

And just like a politician, Unions will promise you the moon and the stars.

I'm in a Union and am also a Labor advocate. I promise you nothing. Whatever you would gain or lose from being a participant or in one at all would be entirely up to you?

 

[WeAAsles]

Wow, you tell me to keep it simple, then come back with a 20 page dissertation ?
What part of "NO UNION" do you not understand?

Earnings

In 2014, among full-time wage and salary workers, union members had median usual weekly
earnings of $970, while those who were not union members had median weekly earnings of $763.
In addition to coverage by a collective bargaining agreement, this earnings difference
reflects a variety of influences, including variations in the distributions of union members
and nonunion employees by occupation, industry, age, firm size, or geographic region.

http://www.bls.gov/news.release/union2.nr0.htm

 

[WeAAsles]

Earnings

In 2014, among full-time wage and salary workers, union members had median usual weekly
earnings of $970, while those who were not union members had median weekly earnings of $763.
In addition to coverage by a collective bargaining agreement, this earnings difference
reflects a variety of influences, including variations in the distributions of union members
and nonunion employees by occupation, industry, age, firm size, or geographic region.

http://www.bls.gov/news.release/union2.nr0.htm

Sorry I tried to highlight this for you so you could read it better but the tool is not cooperating? I hope that you have good eyesight.

 

[700UW]

delete

 

[swamt]

Again, spin it however you want to, I DO NOT want to be associated with a union.....period!
Can't get any simpler than that!

southwind, I have understood your stance since you first answered this question a long long time ago.  Don't know why he keeps beating a dead horse with you.  I actually feel the same way you do.  But we had no choice of being represented or not when we hired on as the unions were already here.  With that being said, I will add this to the entire picture.  Now days here at work with certain individuals now gone from work, I am glad I am represented by a union now.  As alot of us feel very different than we did 5-10-15-20 years ago and it is spreading like wildfires throughout the ranks and ALL groups from the pilots to the cleaners to the office folks.  With all that; is any company out there the same as when people were first hired in? Yea they are.  And we could get back to it but there needs to be some changes in order to get there as well as time...

 

[WorldTraveler]

Finished IFY
 

And just like a politician, Unions will promise you the moon and the stars and deliver nothing but heartache and excuses.