How to remove ALPA from both the East & West property

[ussnark]

"No longer"? The East NEVER cared what the West pilots thought.

Yeah, that is why the east pilots gave the west pilots equal shares on the profit sharing, even though the east pilots only were contractually entitled to it.

Even when the arbitrator gave both sides the opportunity to rethink the respective positions of both MCs, the West showed up with some new ideas while the East never wavered off of their DOH adjusted for LOS.

Please post the "movement" the westies gave to the aribitrator?

What the heck is "DOH" adjusted for LOS? DOH is LOS, unless something screwy is going on.

 

[Bud8EE]

First of all, provisional remedies are immediate. They exist to afford a plaintiff immediate relief and protection. Common provisional remedies include injunctions (both prohibatory and mandatory), restraining orders (temporary and permanent), and declaratory judgments. Although full litigation of claims can take years, the West would have immediate recourse against USAPA such that the new union would be forced to honor the contractual obligations inherited from ALPA.

None of these remedies have been used in the Comair/ASA DFR suit against ALPA, nor the Mid Atlantic, nor any of the retired groups suing ALPA and for voluntary pension terminations with no voting process. The Federal courts seem very slow and have a very high threshold in both determining the limits on the authority of a Collective Bargaining Agent, who is actually covered and what their specific rights are, and whether the threshold of failure of DFR has even taken place. In many instances it takes years for the cases to proceed on DFR grounds and actually argue the merits. Just look at the history of all pilot DFR suits.

Again, what do they have to lose. As to your other point, I would fully expect there are pilots at East who would fully support a DFR suit in support of Nicalou. When has this profession ever acted in solidarity.

I actually feel sorry, because at this point I think you still feel loyal to ALPA and expect to have an upward career with both pay, movement, and benefits. Look at CAL 24 years ago, and expect the animosity that existed between the scabs, PE, NYA, Frontier, TI, and Continental to exist at US Airways and I can promise you history has the record of how US Airways next 15 years of labor problems, contract progress, and success will turnout. I couldn't help but think to myself watching Praeter's video, of all people, he just doesn't get it.

 

[Callsign_Cactus]

Did you guys read anything that was published? The actual Nic award, transcripts, anything other than your MECs rhetoric?

DOH does not equal LOS and to say it does reveals your ingnorance of the topic.

Yeah, that is why the east pilots gave the west pilots equal shares on the profit sharing, even though the east pilots only were contractually entitled to it.
Please post the "movement" the westies gave to the aribitrator?

What the heck is "DOH" adjusted for LOS? DOH is LOS, unless something screwy is going on.

 

[aquagreen73s]

None of these remedies have been used in the Comair/ASA DFR suit against ALPA, nor the Mid Atlantic, nor any of the retired groups suing ALPA and for voluntary pension terminations with no voting process. The Federal courts seem very slow and have a very high threshold in both determining the limits on the authority of a Collective Bargaining Agent, who is actually covered and what their specific rights are, and whether the threshold of failure of DFR has even taken place. In many instances it takes years for the cases to proceed on DFR grounds and actually argue the merits. Just look at the history of all pilot DFR suits.

Again, what do they have to lose. As to your other point, I would fully expect there are pilots at East who would fully support a DFR suit in support of Nicalou. When has this profession ever acted in solidarity.

I actually feel sorry, because at this point I think you still feel loyal to ALPA and expect to have an upward career with both pay, movement, and benefits. Look at CAL 24 years ago, and expect the animosity that existed between the scabs, PE, NYA, Frontier, TI, and Continental to exist at US Airways and I can promise you history has the record of how US Airways next 15 years of labor problems, contract progress, and success will turnout. I couldn't help but think to myself watching Praeter's video, of all people, he just doesn't get it.

The common law tort claim of bad faith no longer exists against a collective bargaining agent; it's been supplanted by the statutory DFR claim. I don't think the DFR statute allows for provisional remedies but I'm not certain because it's been several months since I looked it up in the CFR. But what I do know is that the CB agents themselves had a lot of say in the language of the statute and they deliberately designed the statute (well, lobbied is more correct) so that the plaintiff has an onerous burden. Since nobody likes to be sued, even CB agents, then it's not surpising that a class of defendants would "write out" as many plaintiff remedies as they can get away with.

What we're talking about here is vastly different than the situations you cited because here you would have a party that is clearly bound to a contract and is clearly in breach. ALPA did nothing in the cases you cited that would rise to a breach. The cases you cited are plain vanilla DFR suits which pretty much relegates the plaintiff to the never never land of the DFR statute. With USAPA, however, we're far beyond DFR.

 

[AWA320]

What's the worse case? Union insolvency and reordering the list to Nicalou. That would be the same outcome as now, except they might buy 10 years, as DFR lawsuits tend to go on and on forever. Another 10 years is a lot of attrition, but that attrition thing is over blown anyway, right? How many DFRs does ALPA have filed against it at present? I think it is in the neighborhood of 6 or 7.

Oh no you are way off!! Worst case is an in house union that only east pilots support it is essentially broke due to one sided support. There will be a legal fight each and every time a new bid comes out or an aircraft is added. The arbitrator will see that a case was heard and decided that one party cried about that causes all this. The Nic list will be seen by this arbitrator and no doubt be used. This will cause even more tension between our two pilot groups.



Best case, a DFR goes now where and Nicalou is never used.

Well I disagree on this for several reasons. The case was presented to and decided by and arbitor that both parties chose and neither had problems. It wasn't until the east didn't get their way that they claimed foul! Just like with you at NWA every bid every piece of equipment that come on the property was challenged. What you did have was the smarts to not lose money on your contract by having republic paid differently than NWA.

In our case we have two pilot groups compensated very differently and management wins as a result. They have no problem what so ever keeping the east in LOA 93 as it saves them millions in pay and benefits. They will not give parity and are under contractual obligation to do so without a joint contract. For us on the west, we will see the same pay and benefits that are in contract 04 management wins again here as it saves them millions to have a contract that had ATSB constraints in it.

The malcontents will have washed out in seven to ten years if the company survives this. If not they will file BK and shread the two contracts. More concessions will result and any scope language will be thrown out by the BK judge. The company will then have to furlough some pilots. We will then see a leaner company that is merged with another company and the process starts over again. Hopfully lessons will have been learned to work out differences PRIOR TO GOING INTO ARBITRATION THAT YOU AGREED TO!!!

The company will ultimatly win this battle either way it goes.

 

[autofixer]

Who cares?

 

[b737fo]

Yeah, that is why the east pilots gave the west pilots equal shares on the profit sharing, even though the east pilots only were contractually entitled to it.
Please post the "movement" the westies gave to the aribitrator?

What the heck is "DOH" adjusted for LOS? DOH is LOS, unless something screwy is going on.

I don't have the actual proposal of the leeway that the West MC was willing to give but here is a snippet of transcript from Feb 21 that refers to AWA's document brought to the meeting that showed there was room in the West position to find some common ground while the AAA MC did not have any modifications to submit:

CHAIRMAN NICOLAU: Yes. The last time we
met, in a somewhat smaller room, where even if it
was smaller we were trying to figure out a way how
to negotiate a treaty in this room, and this room I
guess is perfect for it.
The board asked both sides to reflect and
to consider what we have said and to come back to
discuss any revised positions that they had, that
they intended to make, and to present. We already
have a document from the America West pilots.
We would like to hear first, this morning,
from the US Air pilots as to what their response is
and then anything that America West wants to add,
and then we are going to take it from there.
So Dan, how do you want to proceed in that
regard?
MR. KATZ: Well, I guess the first thing I
would like to do is respond to the submission that
we received electronically last night from the
America West pilots, and just say a word or two
about that. Number one --
CHAIRMAN NICOLAU: That is a little
backward, but I mean if you want to proceed that
way.
MR. KATZ: I would prefer, unless there is
a problem with that. I can start out by saying that
we don't have a modification of our proposal in any
respect that we are prepared to make at this time.
And if it makes more sense logically to start from
that I am happy to do that.



The very first sentence in the of the document entitled:

ARBITRATION PRE-HEARING STATEMENT
OF THE US AIRWAYS MERGER REPRESENTATIVES

refers to a position by the East MC of date of hire with an adjustment made for length of service. The furloughed pilots may have a 20 year date of hire but a length of service less than that.

 

[aquagreen73s]

MR. KATZ: Well, I guess the first thing I
would like to do is respond to the submission that
we received electronically last night from the
America West pilots, and just say a word or two
about that. Number one --
CHAIRMAN NICOLAU: That is a little
backward, but I mean if you want to proceed that
way.
MR. KATZ: I would prefer, unless there is
a problem with that. I can start out by saying that
we don't have a modification of our proposal in any
respect that we are prepared to make at this time.
And if it makes more sense logically to start from
that I am happy to do that.

Knowing what I now know about the East influences, I'm not surprised that they basically thumbed their nose at the trier of fact. However, I'm stumped as to why Mr. Katz would use the pronoun "I" instead of saying "my client." If it were me, I would have been saying "my client feels..." or "my client believes..." Clearly Mr. Katz uderstood the admonition from Arbitrator Nicolau that both sides come back to the table with some concessions yet here he is trying to talk his way out of an instruction that even a second grader would understand. I guess the East influence felt that adhering to Nicolau's demand would be a sign of weakness; that they would show everybody who the Alfa male was in that arbitration. Yeah...right. What happened on May 5th is that somebody got schooled as to the way the real world works.

 

[Cactus737]

You are COMPLETELY out of line!! :down: :down: :down: :down:

Not meant as a jab; ask any EC member what their primary reason was for not telling the East what "final and binding" means last month.

 

[nostradamus]

Without the directive mentioned, there is no point to be read.....

Jim

Benedict Arnold

“The heart may think it knows better: the senses know that absence blots people out. We really have no absent friends. The friend becomes a traitor by breaking, however unwillingly or sadly, out of our own zone: a hard judgment is passed on him, for all the pleas of the heart.â€￾

Elizabeth Bowen quotes

 

[Cactus737]

Yeah, that is why the east pilots gave the west pilots equal shares on the profit sharing, even though the east pilots only were contractually entitled to it.

Profit sharing that you would have never collected by you if the merger didn't take place. Speaking of contractual entitlement, the West has given up a year of amendable time to negotiate an agreement that gives the East (whoo is NOT amendable) 80 percent of the $$$.

I just don't understand why you guys are so persistent about sticking to your "the sky is pink" arguments.

 

[AWA320]

I've read multiple posts and threads and for the life of me I cannot understand what removing ALPA gets either US or HP.

It like this Bob, the spoiled child has decided to punish every by holding his breath until he turns blue. Those of us in the real world know that this action will only serve to hurt them further.

I don't have the actual proposal of the leeway that the West MC was willing to give but here is a snippet of transcript from Feb 21 that refers to AWA's document brought to the meeting that showed there was room in the West position to find some common ground while the AAA MC did not have any modifications to submit:

CHAIRMAN NICOLAU: Yes. The last time we
met, in a somewhat smaller room, where even if it
was smaller we were trying to figure out a way how
to negotiate a treaty in this room, and this room I
guess is perfect for it.
The board asked both sides to reflect and
to consider what we have said and to come back to
discuss any revised positions that they had, that
they intended to make, and to present. We already
have a document from the America West pilots.
We would like to hear first, this morning,
from the US Air pilots as to what their response is
and then anything that America West wants to add,
and then we are going to take it from there.
So Dan, how do you want to proceed in that
regard?
MR. KATZ: Well, I guess the first thing I
would like to do is respond to the submission that
we received electronically last night from the
America West pilots, and just say a word or two
about that. Number one --
CHAIRMAN NICOLAU: That is a little
backward, but I mean if you want to proceed that
way.
MR. KATZ: I would prefer, unless there is
a problem with that. I can start out by saying that
we don't have a modification of our proposal in any
respect that we are prepared to make at this time.
And if it makes more sense logically to start from
that I am happy to do that.
The very first sentence in the of the document entitled:

And there it is ladies and gentleman offers made and AAA sends us the FU very much sign!! Now you want us to bend over to slip us the nine iron, yeah right! I wouldn't give you folks the pleasure. Burn the damn place to the ground remove ALPA do what ever you have to do but we aint' moving one MFing inch!! had your chance now it's our turn. Let me know what time the bond fire is, got marshmellows 😉

 

[A320 Driver]

It like this Bob, the spoiled child has decided to punish every by holding his breath until he turns blue. Those of us in the real world know that this action will only serve to hurt them further.
And there it is ladies and gentleman offers made and AAA sends us the FU very much sign!! Now you want us to bend over to slip us the nine iron, yeah right! I wouldn't give you folks the pleasure. Burn the damn place to the ground remove ALPA do what ever you have to do but we aint' moving one MFing inch!! had your chance now it's our turn. Let me know what time the bond fire is, got marshmellows 😉

You sound like a very frustrated person. Why does it bother you so much that the East pilots are going to change Unions? Nobody is going to "burn the damn place to the ground". Nearly all of the East pilots want the company to succeed, but they want new representation. It will happen, and USAirways will still be here.


Relax.

A320 Driver B)

 

[700UW]

The NMB will make BOTH WEST and East pilots be counted in the total number of eligble voters.

It will take 50%+1 off ALL voters, and more than likely the NMB will include the furloughees, as they did in the IAM representational dispute between the IBT.

And remember if they cant get ahold of, their # still counts towards the vote total.

And if you start your own union, who is gonna fund it as you are still required to pay dues to ALPA during the process?

 

[Phoenix]

The NMB will make BOTH WEST and East pilots be counted in the total number of eligble voters.

It will take 50%+1 off ALL voters, and more than likely the NMB will include the furloughees, as they did in the IAM representational dispute between the IBT.

And remember if they cant get ahold of, their # still counts towards the vote total.

And you think the furloughees won't relish the thought?