Hours of Work

[Buck]

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On 3/30/2003 12:30:44 PM GraftedOne wrote:

You guys make me laugh. I suppose you all ask other professionals what they make and gripe about that. Ha! If you want to know why pilots make what they make......Go out and get your ratings and become a pilot! I am just guessing, but if it were so easy and it pays so much, everyone would be doing it. I think it is probably more than you JUDGES can handle otherwise you would be doing it. Walk a mile in their shoes. Flying 1/2 mile vis. approaches to a pitching ship, flying night bombing raids to protect the rights of such as you, flying night cargo in all kinds of weather. They face hundreds of ways to lose their jobs and lives and you guys want to whine about their pay. Would you do that to another professional? Would you want your family and 395 others on an aircraft in bad weather being piloted by a guy making 18,000 a year, just like you would want the lowest paid Doctor doing surgery on your head. You guys have no clue!

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Since you went there?

I have A&P Licenses

A certain skill is required to repair aircraft, just as for those that fly them.

While I totally respect the pilots abilities and responsibilities, it is the maintenance that provides for the airwothiness of the aircraft. The mechaic has abilities and greater responsibilty than the pilot, because not only do both have responsibility to the customer or flying public, the mechanic has the responsibility to pilot. If the mechanic does not do his job properly, then the pilot cannot accomplish his.

My opinon, is that pilots do not earn enough pay, but neither do the mechanics. Pilots are responsible for each and every passenger they fly. Mechanics are responsible for the aircraft that these professionals use to accomplish this task. A mechanics airworthiness of an aircraft carries to each load of passengers for his entire career. So I believe that maybe it is you that does not have a clue.

 

[ZMAN777]

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On 3/30/2003 12:30:44 PM GraftedOne wrote:

You guys make me laugh. I suppose you all ask other professionals what they make and gripe about that. Ha! If you want to know why pilots make what they make......Go out and get your ratings and become a pilot!... Flying 1/2 mile vis. approaches to a pitching ship, flying night bombing raids to protect the rights of such as you, flying night cargo in all kinds of weather. They face hundreds of ways to lose their jobs and lives and you guys want to whine about their pay. Would you do that to another professional? Would you want your family and 395 others on an aircraft in bad weather being piloted by a guy making 18,000 a year, just like you would want the lowest paid Doctor doing surgery on your head. You guys have no clue!

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I guess that''ll about take care of any other whining over what/why pilots get padi what they do. You hit the nail squarely on the head! Good post. Nuff said!

Cheers,
Z

 

[AAviator]

Buck, if you feel that way, you need to take that up with your democratically elected representatives. The strength/weakness of the union is the collective resolve of the membership.

Not an internet "wailing wall"

 

[Bob Owens]

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On 3/29/2003 6:23:41 PM FA Mikey wrote:

It would be like a Mechanic or FSC only being paid for the actual time fixing or servicing the plane.

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OK, but be careful what you wish for.

 

[Buck]

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On 3/30/2003 1:34:59 PM AAviator wrote:

Buck, if you feel that way, you need to take that up with your democratically elected representatives. The strength/weakness of the union is the collective resolve of the membership.

Not an internet "wailing wall"

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I have taken it up with the union. I have attempted to replace my representive,to no avail. You are correct.

An internet wailing wall? I thought this was just Free Speech?

 

[dogdriver]

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On 3/30/2003 12:25:37 PM DFWCC wrote:

Dear DOGDRIVER, If you re-read the qoute "Also AMT or FSC doesn''t get paid travel time to and from work EITHER" Either meaning I understand you do not get travel time to and from work "EITHER" do we. Thank you
This is getting silly. I really don''t care what you make. We just need to be on the same team work together and respect each other.

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DFWCC,
Sorry if I misunderstood you. Your statement led me to believe that you thought flight crews got paid for travel to and from work. It also looked like you thought that we got help from the company while commuting to work. I''m glad that you are aware that neither of the above are true.
Just for the record the only ones on our team that I truly disrespect are the AA$$holes that didn''t do their jobs, yet still made millions, and got us into this mess in the first place.

 

[Mach85ER]

DFWCC wrote:

"I know pilots and Fa s are away from home but they also get to stay in nicer hotels than MOTEL 6. "

Internationally they tend to be fairly decent hotels. They are a necessary expense for rest reasons, cheap ones tend to be noisy during the day when we sleep, and for security reasons, watch the cancellation expense rise because of mugging injuries.

Domestically the Motel 6''s and La Quintas are not unknown. Nicer places may give the same bulk contract rate as them due to the business downturn.

Now, my little hotel expert, do you know where the pilots stay for month long training schools? The Ballpark Inn in Arlington. Park your car at Hooters'' up the road some late evening, have a few beers, while wearing a nice watch, walk down to the Ballpark Inn. Due that a few nights and report back to us what "nice" places AA pilots stay at. I know of one pilot who saw a body tossed out of a van in front of there one night during training. On another visit, I had the same room I had as a new-hire 12 years previously. The sagging rotten, moldy bathroom cieling had never been fixed.
Don''t like the Ballpark? The Sleep Inn near Six Flags is another training hotel. About 2 years ago, one of our pilots was shot in the face point blank during a hold-up where he was complying. As another example, I called a high school buddy to meet me at my layover hotel. He busted out laughing when I told where I was at. He is a TV news reporter and our "nice" layover hotel was where he did nearly all his "dead hooker" news reports. In New York, our old hotel was the Milford Plaza. Before the neighborhood was cleaned up, we stayed there. At the same time a couple of ex-cons kept a 12 year old girl in their room for a pet for a few days. Sleep 95 nights a year with stained, foam rubber blankets, and you''ll feel the same way when you read posts like yours.

" You make $205K cool. You must be worth it. Soon we''ll all find out were not worth as much as we think we are, at least not in the eyes of uncle Don CAArty "

No. we aren''t worth it. You aren''t worth it either bud. We both are worth only what we negotiate, nothing more.


"If they have some turn arounnd time its not a bad way to see London or New York and AA pays for hotel and cab fare."

Do you actually work for the airline or are you some 12 year old kid. Your statement sounds like someone who thinks one good "benni" for a McDonalds worker is they can eat all the fries they want. It is cool the first few times. By the fourth trip you start seeing the warts they don''t show in the travel guides. By the 20th, I rather have a short flight to a domestic city, and chow down on a cheap meal in a nice local pub.



ArtTang
You wrote:
"I think most pilots would agree that their crew meals could be brought more in line with the flight attendants. "

I would have to say no. I for one domestically eat on the airplane as a last resort, but off schedule ops would wreak havoc on the food gathering. It simply is a safety issue. No food for a long period can effect performance. Personally I think I can do 12 hours on a few Mt. Dews and Fritos but many others, especially females, could be affected more than me. Then again I was never wired for mental ability when I''ve done that either.

You wrote:
"On long haul flights, such as Paris-Miami, f/as are provided with one meal and pilots receive two."

Forgive me on this one Art, but in 8 years of flying FRA/LHR/LGW/CDG/MAD to MIA flights, I have never seen a FA go hungry. You guys have unfettered access to the chocolates (usually hiding under the paperwork ),and the rest of the leftover items. I usually pass on the pasta/sandwich afternoon snack deal mainly due to nibbling on the cheese and crackers and ice cream after the FA''s have done the same. Again, two meals for the Pilots is a safety issue. To have a guy get up at 2:00 am and feed him one lunch at 6:00am then have nothing until he lands at 3-4pm or later with delays is a safety problem.

 

[Mach85ER]

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Take for instance a few yrs ago when the pilots wanted a higher boarding priority for they and their families just because "we''re pilots". It was an agenda like that, that causes seperation of teamwork. .

DFWCC

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DFWCC

That is BS and you and most other employee groups fell hook-line-and-sinker for the AMR divide and conquer campaign mainly due to pilot bashing like we''ve seen here.

It came about because AA was allowing all the AMR companies were passing out travel bennies even though many of these groups did work that had little or no involvement with American airlines. You do remember all the other divisions AMR had before they decided to focus on the airline? They were using the lure of travel as part of a benefit package. These groups were bouncing AA airline employees from non-rev seats even though they have been programming French Railway schedules. I for a fact got knocked off a full flight on a A12 pass for bluejean clad A6 couple with their kid. I did find out this guy was with one of these offshoot companies that did nothing for AA.

1. the problem was that APA wanted the AIRLINE EMPLOYEES to have a higher classification of travel over these other groups

2. APA can not, nor has ANY POWER WHATSOEVER, EVEN LEGALLY to negotiate IN ANY WAY for other employee groups for any benefit like non-rev travel.

3. The ONLY way they could try to fix the perceived problem was to ask for the pass travel class change for THE PILOTS in hopes that AA would give all AIRLINE EMPLOYEES to better travel equal to the pilots. (This had direct precedent. You have direct deposit due to the APA pilots. In our 1990 contract, we negotiated it even though Crandall told APA "FU, I''m getting $200,000/year on paycheck interest float". After we got it, the Airline gave it to everyone else.) THAT WAS THE PLAN.

4. What happened? I flew the next morning after APA announced it. The FA supervisors had the APA request printed up and passed out to every FA who signed in. Everyone I passed in the hall was bitching like a clueless idiot about "those pilots". I''m sure it was the same with the FSC staff and the HQ staff too. (I do fault the APA somewhat for a lack of communication with other employee groups).


What have we learned?
Nothing, just read the posts about the pilots on these boards.

 

[Bob Owens]

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On 3/30/2003 10:18:09 PM Mach85ER wrote:

What have we learned?
Nothing, just read the posts about the pilots on these boards.

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Maybe what we should have learned is to communicate better.
Pilots, as a group have always been secretive about their contract. Their track history is not that good either when it comes to other work groups. When I asked TWU-ATD Director Jim Little about working more closely with the pilots he responded that the pilots only care about themselves and would sell all the other work groups down the river in a heartbeat. If this is the way he feels it is, and it’s not true, then how could you expect the members, who rely on him for information to feel differently? Throughout the industry, in the past we saw pilots willingly cross picket lines and endorse Reagan’s firing of PATCO. Even amongst the Pilots we see where ALPA maintains a 40 year old grudge against the APA and wont allow them into the AFL-CIO and used their political influence to get Clinton to stop the 1997 APA strike. In NY we (mechanics) and pilots have a good relationship. We earned a lot of respect from the pilots back in 1999 after the "Hard Copy" incident.

Clearly the labor movement is in complete disarray. The self serving incompetence of the Airlines executives is only overshadowed by the self serving incompetence of Union executives who are more concerned about territorial expansion than doing what is right for the members. As the industry feigns collapse, the workers are going to end up being the only victims. As one by one we walk through the corporate/governments gauntlet (courts) we will all take our beating. Even though we all know that we will face this, our leaders have done nothing to lead us to resist it. We have all surrendered without a fight. Why? Because when all the dust settles our Union executives will be unscathed. Their pay, their benefits, their living standards will be unscathed. For twenty years we have been told time and time again not to resist, to "live to fight another day". With these leaders "another day" will never come. What they really mean is "I got mine so I don’t really care what happens to you". Every airline worker is going to take a hit before this is through. The airlines are going for 6-year deals. Prior to 1995 when did this industry ever see six-year deals? In the TWU Jim Little is a pioneer in bad long-term deals like his EAGLE deal. This saves the union money. Instead of dues going towards contract negotiations it can go to officers salaries. The members never get to vote for these people or what they make. They just get left with the bill and lots of rhetoric and NO leadership. If you guys feel the same way, why don’t we start to work together outside of our failed institutional structures? If our leaders will not lead then we need to find our own way. Better that we should put aside our petty jealousies and do this together. What do you think?

 

[GraftedOne]

I want you all to know that I have the highest respect for A/C mechanics! I in no way desired to put down a mechanic. You are right Buck, the mechanics do a wonderful job and keep us safe. I for one would not want a guy working on my plane making 18k a year either. Please forgive me if you read my post and got out of it that I was downing mechanics. "YOU GUYS DO A GREAT JOB and should get paid accordingly!