Exactly my point damajagua and thanks for posting. In the end however I think Taylor Vaughns' spin on the numbers, however wrong we all know it is, will be bought by judge Lane. Vaughn would have the judge believe the numbers he is presenting are pristine and unassailable. I know he's wrong, you know he's wrong and thousands of other F/A's know he's wrong, but in the end he is the mouthpiece for the company in front of the judge. I can only hope APFA's lawyers are adept at proving his numbers to be the result of the twisted logic that they are. Statistics can be used to justify nearly any point of view or position and he and Bain Captial are doing just that.
AA flight attendants raising $64,000 question
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Exactly my point damajagua and thanks for posting. In the end however I think Taylor Vaughns' spin on the numbers, however wrong we all know it is, will be bought by judge Lane. Vaughn would have the judge believe the numbers he is presenting are pristine and unassailable. I know he's wrong, you know he's wrong and thousands of other F/A's know he's wrong, but in the end he is the mouthpiece for the company in front of the judge. I can only hope APFA's lawyers are adept at proving his numbers to be the result of the twisted logic that they are. Statistics can be used to justify nearly any point of view or position and he and Bain Captial are doing just that.
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Flown (block) hours or paid hours? If the former, then you're in the top 17 AA FAs as only 17 FAs managed to fly 1,680 hours last year.
Vaughn did not say that. He did not say that a flight attendant who flies 70 hours a month averages $64k. He said that FAs who fly at least 70 hours every month (which is not the same as averaging 70 hours per month) make an average pay of $64k. Some FAs who fly at least 70 hours every month earn more and some earn less, but the 3,011 who fly 70 hours every month earn an average of $64k. Obviously, those who fly at leasst 70 hours per month actually fly a lot more than 70 on average.
Actually, the numbers do add up, as long as everyone actaully reads what Vaughn said and doesn't argue against things he didn't say. He didn't say that flying 70 hours a month earned $64k. He said that those who fly 70 or more hours every month earn an average of $64k. Turns out that the 70 min per month group flies a lot, like you. If you actually flew 1,680 hours last year and earned $97k, then you're one of the 3,011 FAs in that group identified by Vaughn. Of course, you're on the high side of the average.
kirkpatrick
Veteran
I understand this. The point I was trying to make is that Vaughn's statements were obviously pointed in one direction - to show how overpaid we FAs are. When he says those who fly at least 720 he's including those who fly 720 and all those who fly more, conveniently leaving out those who fly less. In fact, those who fly less couldn't fly less unless those who fly more were there to pick up their trips. It's an obvious ploy to make it appear we make so much money we can afford to take huge concessions.
The ability to drop and pick up trips is a flexibility that we all enjoy, and to twist the numbers that way borders on dishonest. What's the average FA W2? That will tell you something closer to the truth than singling out a group of high time flyers and posting what they make.
MK
This smacks of the "F/as are not breadwinners" comments of the mid eighties...(just eh girls in the back) Companies negotiate contracts, sign off on the terms and then cry foul...what happened to good faith?
jimntx
Veteran
Well, they meant to honor the contracts, but you know, the executive bonusses just got so expensive. The money's got to come from somewhere. If we don't give them bonusses for continuing to breathe and remain upright, we might lose their talents.
WRONG!!!
A little cross examination does wonders:
The Dallas Morning News - $64,000 for flight attendants? American Airlines official explains the number
Vaughn acknowledged that the number in a chart he submitted includes high-time flight attendants who fly a great many more hours than 70 hours a month. It includes the highest earning 5 percent, who average $93,000 a year. That causes the average to move upwards.
"It's not suggesting that people who fly 70 hours average $64,000," Vaughn said under Clayman's cross-examination.
Pushing on, Clayman extracted from Vaughn the acknowledgement that a flight attendant would have to fly a lot of hours a month, 100 to 110 hours, to earn the overtime that would put them in the top 5 percent.
The average flying is 75 for domestic flight attendants and 82 for international flight attendants.
American wants to schedule flight attendants a maximum of 100 hours, which would mean that the average flight attendant would be scheduled 85 hours a month, both domestic and international.
Vaughn in his declaration submitted in March said "the typical flight attendant receives about $45,000 in salary" and "$3,100 in per diem payments."
Vaughn acknowledged that the number in a chart he submitted includes high-time flight attendants who fly a great many more hours than 70 hours a month. It includes the highest earning 5 percent, who average $93,000 a year. That causes the average to move upwards.
"It's not suggesting that people who fly 70 hours average $64,000," Vaughn said under Clayman's cross-examination.
Pushing on, Clayman extracted from Vaughn the acknowledgement that a flight attendant would have to fly a lot of hours a month, 100 to 110 hours, to earn the overtime that would put them in the top 5 percent.
The average flying is 75 for domestic flight attendants and 82 for international flight attendants.
American wants to schedule flight attendants a maximum of 100 hours, which would mean that the average flight attendant would be scheduled 85 hours a month, both domestic and international.
Vaughn in his declaration submitted in March said "the typical flight attendant receives about $45,000 in salary" and "$3,100 in per diem payments."
eolesen
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- Jul 23, 2003
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To be fair, all this cross examination does is prove what was being said above on several occasions --- the average of the top 20% gets skewed by the top 5%...
This whole topic is a great example of what happens when soundbites get quoted and repeated without the supporting context....
This whole topic is a great example of what happens when soundbites get quoted and repeated without the supporting context....
jimntx
Veteran
Except there wasn't really any supporting text until f/as pointed out to the court that the company was playing games with the facts. As Mark Twain said, "There are lies. There are damn lies. And, then there are statistics."
As someone else said, E...if Bill Gates walks into the room, the average household income of the room's occupants increases greatly. However, if you were one of those occupants, you wouldn't be spending anywhere near the average income--well, not unless you wanted to be in serious financial trouble.
As someone else said, E...if Bill Gates walks into the room, the average household income of the room's occupants increases greatly. However, if you were one of those occupants, you wouldn't be spending anywhere near the average income--well, not unless you wanted to be in serious financial trouble.
TWU informer
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YAWN
jimntx
Veteran
No, Eric. You're not at AA anymore. You don't have to spin the company's underhanded dealings anymore. What someone bothered to skim through the depositions and find was the $64,000 quote left as is--i.e., that flight attendants flying over 70 hours a month made $64,000 a year. End of statement. It was only under cross-exam that Mr. Vaughan admitted that that was an average and that someone else discovered that it represented only the top 5% of those flying over 70 hours a month.
You ought to know that most f/as fly over 70 hours month. My line for May is preplotted with 76 hours. Very few lines have less than 70 hours because that is the contractual minimum. I saw some lines on the May bidsheet that were preplotted at over 80 hours! If there is only 67 hours of flying on the line, the company has to provide 3 hours of Pay&Credit to bring it up to 70. That is 3 hours of flight pay without flying. If a planner were to build too many of those kinds of line, the company would be making that planner "available to the wider job market." You know how they hate to pay flight pay for not flying.
Now, I do not generally fly high time because I don't have to. I am on 11th year pay step; so, to gross $64000/yr, I would have to fly approx. 122 hours/mo. EVERY MONTH! (70 hours at $41.20/hr + 52 hours at $47.38/hr) No way, Jose. That is way too much like working for a living.
