Here We Go Again

[tadjr]

Saw US loaded the fares in the PHL WN markets for May 15 and beyond sale. They matched WN on all fares and added a couple of others, but still have it down to about 6 or 7 oneway fares and 3 or 4 round trips. Took a quick glance at some of the fare restrictions on the one way fares and the ones I looked at appear to be refundable/standby same day of dept with no fee mentioned and no charge to change (except the difference in fares). They still have the rt excursion nonrefundable/charge for standby and changes.

 

[Borescope]

Saw US loaded the fares in the PHL WN markets for May 15 and beyond sale. They matched WN on all fares and added a couple of others

Seems to me there was another carrier that has a blue, gray, white, yellow, or what ever color they could use that tried the same thing on the left coast. I remember Herb saying "bring it on, we'll nuke 'em" when they matched WN's fares and look where they are in those markets. Good luck to US, someone has to stop WN. I hope you do it.

 

[TomBascom]

I really have a hard time figuring out why any airline should provide a perk for a person who is not employed by them.

It's called marketing.

If anything, if a company wants to provide a perk for their road warrior employees, then their company should pop for the upgraded seat.

I live for the day when those rose colored glasses are passed out... Since the airlines and I both know that I'll be waiting a very long time for that day to arrive they find it very effective to entice me into their frequent flier program.

I don't think any of US's suppliers are giving products to the provisioning agents because those agents handle their products all day long.

Want to bet?

Why are airline seats any different??

They aren't. That's the point.

 

[KCFlyer]

I don't think any of US's suppliers are giving products to the provisioning agents because those agents handle their products all day long.



Want to bet?

Odd...in most companies, "gifts" to an employee from a vendor are usually grounds for termination.

 

[TomBascom]

I don't think any of US's suppliers are giving products to the provisioning agents because those agents handle their products all day long.



Want to bet?

Odd...in most companies, "gifts" to an employee from a vendor are usually grounds for termination.

But marketing incentives are not. Nor is it against the rules to have lunch with a vendor -- which is pretty much equivalent to the cost of the upgrade "perk" that you get so worked up about...

Actually gifts are not against the rules, at least not at many of the companies I deal with. They just have to be reported beyond a certain (generally quite low) threshold.

 

[KCFlyer]

NO need to educate me on the Asian way of doing things Piney. My late father was the vice president of a small electronics company named "Sony". Perhaps you've heard of them. Turns out, he was one of the very first US sales reps hired by them back in 1968.


But the post you are responding to was my comment that most employees who recieve gifts from a vendor could face severe reprimands, up to and including termination. Now, I gotta admit that back then at Sony (before they were "Americanized"), they really do put family first, but they most assuredly did not permit their employees to accept "gifts" from anyone other than the company. They didn't micro mangage his travel...although the rule was "coach class" on trips to Tokyo, they made an exception for his 6'4" frame and permitted him to fly First Class on those trips. That was a "reward" for 15 years (at that time) service to the company, as well as being one of the first US salesreps of that company that helped grow them to the multi billion dollar corporation that they became. But the point is...his first class seats were bought and paid for by his
employer and not something that he felt "entitled" to from the airline. And you fly a few trips to Tokyo every year in combination with a few trips to NYC every month, and you most certainly would become an "elite" passenger.

Yes, they let him keep his frequent flyer miles, although having travelled all his life, he never had the urge to use them. But here's the thing...his first class seat was a "gift" from his employer. Heck, if they would have decided to micromanage his travel and demand that he turn over his FF miles to the company, he would have done so. Because Sony repaid him for doing a great job by providing for him and his family a VERY comfortable living. And while he oversaw the relocation of his branch office in his home state, even though he was responsible for the purchasing of any office equipment....any gift recieved from the real estate company or someone other than Akio Morita or one of his management team would result in severe disciplinary action.

 

[JS]

KCFlyer, you are right that frequent flyer perks are too generous on US Airways. Delta has solved that problem by implementing a different method of elite status accrual -- miles on cheap fares count 50%, miles on full coach fares count 150%, and First Class miles count 200% towards elite status.

The result is that the people upgraded into a First Class seat are paying more, by virtue of the fact that the cheapies are lower on the totem pole, and First Class may fill up before their upgrade request is processed.


PineyBob, Greenville, NC is PGV (Pitt-Greenville, NC). PVG is Shanghai, China. $439 roundtrip to China is downright cheap.

 

[TomBascom]

It's a complete mystery to me how KC comes to the conclusion that upgrades or miles are a "gift".

 

[ELP_WN_Psgr]

It's a complete mystery to me how KC comes to the conclusion that upgrades or miles are a "gift".

Not just KC. Try the United States government.

It was only just a few years back that the government, specifically personnel within DOD, were able to use the tickets generated by their FF miles or credits. Before the change in rules, you had to forfeit your miles or credits or use them exclusively when traveling on government business.

The view, as espoused by military attorneys during the ever-popular annual ethics training, was that the miles or credits generated by the official travel done by a particular individual on orders was property of the government, and individuals were expressly prohibited from using the fruits of their travel.

The truth is, they (the gubmint) probably still thinks the miles or credits should accrue to them, but the burden of tracking and enforcing and managing the miles and credits is too onerous a problem....much as it pains us to do it, let the service member keep and use the miles.

I will say that what the government does defeats the purpose of various FF programs. FF programs were instituted by airlines to try and keep a traveler on a particular carrier. Government personnel travel on whoever the contract carrier is for a particular route (unless the contract fare is higher than standard Y, in which case the government personnel can opt to travel at standard Y on a non contract carrier and yes there are bid/contract fares higher than full-Y.....not sure why.) So its not a matter of loyalty to an airline, its a matter of whoever the government is telling its personnel to fly.

In my case, I collect AAdvantage, Onepass, and Rapid Rewards dependent upon who the government has decreed that I fly on any particular trip. Out of sheer principle I refuse to have anything to do with SkyMiles.

Bottom line.......an argument can be made that the miles or credits belong to whoever purchased the ticket, rather than who occupied the seat. Rewarding the seat occupant for their travel can certainly be construed as a gift.

You know, it's really strange and it just occurred to me....but what FF programs are, really, are very similar to truck stops on the edge of Victoria, TX back when I worked in the oil field. They offered a cash discount to folks driving heavy (and diesel-thirsty) oil field trucks and equipment. Their prices were higher, but you'd bring in the truck, charge it on the company fuel credit card.....and after you'd run up a diesel sale of $65 the truck stop would put $5 or $6 in your (the individual who drove it in) pocket. Needless to say, a lot of employees were not looking at fuel prices when they decided where to fill up.

Analagous to the airline industry? Are people really so addicted to miles that they will pay $417 for a plane ticket they could have gotten for $79? You bet they are.

 

[JS]

Originally posted by ELP WN Psgr:

I will say that what the government does defeats the purpose of various FF programs. FF programs were instituted by airlines to try and keep a traveler on a particular carrier. Government personnel travel on whoever the contract carrier is for a particular route (unless the contract fare is higher than standard Y, in which case the government personnel can opt to travel at standard Y on a non contract carrier and yes there are bid/contract fares higher than full-Y.....not sure why.) So its not a matter of loyalty to an airline, its a matter of whoever the government is telling its personnel to fly.

I don't know why airlines award frequent flier miles on government fares. No one is forcing the airlines to do so. Well, if they're offering the miles, use 'em.

You know, it's really strange and it just occurred to me....but what FF programs are, really, are very similar to truck stops on the edge of Victoria, TX back when I worked in the oil field. They offered a cash discount to folks driving heavy (and diesel-thirsty) oil field trucks and equipment. Their prices were higher, but you'd bring in the truck, charge it on the company fuel credit card.....and after you'd run up a diesel sale of $65 the truck stop would put $5 or $6 in your (the individual who drove it in) pocket. Needless to say, a lot of employees were not looking at fuel prices when they decided where to fill up.

Analagous to the airline industry? Are people really so addicted to miles that they will pay $417 for a plane ticket they could have gotten for $79? You bet they are.

The difference is that cash is, well, it's cash. Award tickets, for one thing, cannot easily be exchanged for cash (legally, not at all), and the cost of an award ticket is very small (costs the airline about $25 in marginal fuel and labor). Getting back "$25" in exhange for paying $2,500 in airline tickets is only a 1% rebate. That's like getting 65 cents at the truck stop on your $65 bill. Big whup!

Regarding paying $417 when $79 will suffice, if it's your money, go right ahead. If someone else is paying, it might be a problem. Some corporate travel policies will not let you pay $417 when you could pay $79, but on the other hand, other corporate travel policies, illogical as it is, may require you to pay the $417 anyway because doing so gets corporate discounts and supposedly saves that much and more on discounts on higher fares where the $79 version isn't available. The marginal volume is certainly not worth $338 to the company, but these corporate travel managers are either stupid or desperate for commissions (i.e., travel agents obtaining corporate discounts for you).

 

[KCFlyer]

It's a complete mystery to me how KC comes to the conclusion that upgrades or miles are a "gift".

Well Tom...as you well know, every FF program reserves the right to terminate the program at any time. So let's say that US does it, but rather than welcome all the defecting passengers, Delta does it as well. And AA. And UAL. And the list goes on. NOw...you travel for a living. Would you quit your job because you no longer can take the family to Europe using your FF miles? If not - then the reward of miles from the airline is no different than a ham from a vendor at Christmas time...it's a gift.

 

[KCFlyer]

You go off on these rants like I'm robbing the freakin's US treasury! The Airlines started all of this and if it's out of hand then it's not my fault. It's human nature to want the best deal and we all have definitions of what the best deal is or isn't. you have this idea that things should be fair! Well they ain't! And I'm all about ME when it comes to money. The difference between you and me is I have the testosterone to admit I'm after what's in it for me!

So, if US eliminated their FF program, how long would you put up with changing planes in ORD or CLE or ATL before you decided to say "screw this" and opt for the nonstop on US?

I used to travel a lot. But after the birth of my daughter, the glamour of travel was overshadowed by the joy of being around my kid at night. Just wondering if the travel is worth it all when you've gotta go two hours out of your way to get home, but reap the mileage rewards.

 

[MCI transplant]

<_< Hello KCflyer! Haven't I seen you over on another board? Ah! The joys of flying these days! The joys of "Deregulation" have, and continues to, hit the Airline Industry with increased justo as it plays it's self out in the market place! Sometimes I wonder if that so called "Ecconomist" at the Harvard Busniess School, ever though about all the lifes he's screwed up! We had a "Joke" going arround here at work a few years back, went like this:" I a few years there will only be three Airlines! American, United, and finachally troubled TWA!" Somehow, it's not so funny anymore!

 

[KCFlyer]

In May my Mom, Sister, niece, Brother in law and Sweet Thing are going to SFO for a week! Air, Hotel, Car = FREE!!!!! Did I mention FREE! I'll be joining them as part of my business trip. So not only don't I have to use miles for my ticket, I GET miles for my vacation.

Bob...you may have stumbled on how US can better manage their revenue losses. OVer at AA, you'd be hard pressed to get 5 people on free tickets on any flight to anywhere. They manage their inventory. It's tweaking the FF program a bit, but they may be on to something there.

 

[TomBascom]

Well Tom...as you well know, every FF program reserves the right to terminate the program at any time. So let's say that US does it, but rather than welcome all the defecting passengers, Delta does it as well. And AA. And UAL. And the list goes on. NOw...you travel for a living. Would you quit your job because you no longer can take the family to Europe using your FF miles? If not - then the reward of miles from the airline is no different than a ham from a vendor at Christmas time...it's a gift.

Miles and upgrades are no different than the can of soda and the bag of peanuts insofar as their being a "gift". If you want to get into the timing of it then they're no different than the collection of coupons and vouchers that for free drinks and movies that I've collected from the various airlines over the years.

The government obviously has an incipient schizophrenia problem on the subject --on the bright side the IRS, for once, has it right

As for the odds of the programs being terminated -- not a chance, so lets not waste precious electrons on such silliness.

Your whole house of cards is built on the assumption that these "perks" are some sort of hugely expensive cost that is breaking the backs of the airlines. Your foundation for that assumption seems to be the current list price of an F seat which, of course, is a fantasy price that has no relation to any costs in the real world.

In fact the programs are dirt cheap to run, succeed admirably in their goals and are profitable. Now if only the same could be said about flying the planes...

The fact the SWA has Rapid Rewards seems to be lost on you. It's a frequent flier program. It exists, and will continue to exist, for good reasons. The awards happen to have a different flavor than those of a legacy carrier. That's ok. It's a good thing to be different. In fact it's the point. If everyone were eactly like SWA there would be just one airline and monopolies are generally agreed to be a bad thing.