Here comes the BK threat from the company

[Frank Szabo]

... snip

As far as BK can anyone remember a time when AA had more cash or brought in more revenue per worker?

... snip

Looking at a bankruptcy in this manner is incorrect, Bob.

As Chapter 11 (business reorganization) of the USCode is written, there is no means test that applies when a corporation wishes to file for protection. As the law was written and still is written (post October 2005), even a healthy corporation can file and file as often as they desire.

This is why I said in 2003 the threats were BS when a select group from each of the three unions on the property got to look at the books and sign confidentiality agreements to do so. Corporate finances are a matter of public record so my question was "What are they trying to hide?" We know, now.

All three unions sold their people down the river as bonuses and the REAL state of AA's finances would have garnered "NO" votes from all threes' memberships.

Unfortunately, a union steward in my shop did his best to shut me up because he wanted stability so he could retire - the same treatment with the cluster#### TA of last year.

Anymore, I'm divided as to how this will play out. Half of me says a filing is iminent in order to put AA on a par with their peers. The other half says no because the present management would, for a time, lose their control over their piggy bank and their collective ego may not allow that.

Not knowing how the BOD feels about all the goings-on is the wild card leaving one wondering just what exactly they do. Do they make business decisions and hand them down for execution or do they simply exist to collect payment for their meetings and rubber-stamp any "ideas" coming from Centrepork?

An FYI for those willing to read: Cornell Law - Chapter 11, USC

 

[strikeforce]

If they did not ask you, I believe that you would then come on here and post "all they have to do is ask us what the problems are"...

Good manager's always seek input from the the people who are in the trenches doing the hard work.

Good managers will correct lost bag, dependability, on-time, accountability, lost time, and numerous other issues our current managers fail to correct in order to right this ship. Good managers won't tolerate the non-sense that happens within M&E on a daily basis from both union & management. Too bad I just can't think of ONE "good manager" within AA! Lots of managers that just don't know how to or don't care to...fix the problems. Go figure.....

The old saying.."don't hire someone smarter than you or one day that person will become your boss". Welcome to American Airlines!

 

[Frank Szabo]

Good managers will correct lost bag, dependability, on-time, accountability, lost time, and numerous other issues our current managers fail to correct in order to right this ship. Good managers won't tolerate the non-sense that happens within M&E on a daily basis from both union & management. Too bad I just can't think of ONE "good manager" within AA! Lots of managers that just don't know how to or don't care to...fix the problems. Go figure.....

The old saying.."don't hire someone smarter than you or one day that person will become your boss". Welcome to American Airlines!

That's not only American Airlines today but just about all of the corporate world.

 

[strikeforce]

That's not only American Airlines today but just about all of the corporate world.

Corporate America is in deep sh&t.....not too many "good" managers, anymore!

Most companies have these college kids with no hands on experience, but great at making graphs, as managers, and here they are telling experienced workers what to do. What's wrong with this picture??

Graphs and pictures can't fix AA. Good for telling stories, though!

 

[tech2101]

Corporate America is in deep sh&t.....not too many "good" managers, anymore!

Most companies have these college kids with no hands on experience, but great at making graphs, as managers, and here they are telling experienced workers what to do. What's wrong with this picture??

Graphs and pictures can't fix AA. Good for telling stories, though!

Managers will always direct experienced workers. That is why they are called Managers. They are there to provide a direction based on the corporate plan. You are there to work on aircraft in the safest, most efficient manner, to the benefit of the company, based on the Manager's direction.

I encourage you to finish up your degree (if you have not done that already. I know many AMT's who have BS/BA degrees and higher) and go into the management ranks and really make a difference. Frontline experience will give you a great background from which to lead.

I disagree with your statement about corporate America. You painted with too broad a brush there.

There are many great companies out there with top notch management teams. Look at Google, Amazon, Apple, GE, many of the oil companies, and several Bio-Tech firms come to mind. There are not too many Airlines that compare. That said, the airline industry is a loser in its current configuration. No management team can fully change any airline due to its dependence on oil as a major part of its cost structure. The industry is a roller coaster.

 

[eolesen]

Bringing in consultants is not new. I would hope they were hired to take an "outside" view of the entire operation they were tasked with reviewing. A good audit/review from a reputable consulting firm can be invaluable so long as the advice given after the review is actually followed and put into practice. I have seen many of these done only to have the management team at the end ignore all the recommendations of the consulting group.

Exactly. As a consultant, we are usually brought in for three reasons:

1) lack of internal experience/skill to evaluate or implement a new technology/methodology/business processes

2) need for a project sponsor to convince upper management or their peers of a decision they're considering

3) need for an unbiased opinion on both of the above

It really isn't a consultant's job to act as outsourced management, since they have no skin in the game, but there is no shortage of consulting companies who do exactly that, because at places like Accenture or BCG, if you're not billable, you're expendable.

 

[limit]

It is still that way. You will have 2 years of "common body of knowledge courses" before moving on to your major.

Its a far cry I am afraid between a Classical education and the "common body of knowledge courses" of today.
Not that it really matters, it is what it is, and is not changing anytime soon.

 

[eolesen]

Dunno. My wife has been working on her degree, and with very rare exception, all the professors are red diaper doper baby bleeding heart liberals. Greed is certainly mentioned, but usually in a very negative light. And that's in Red states. I can only imagine what's going on at the east coast Ivy Leauge schools where guys like John Kerry and Al Gore are held in high esteem...

 

[strikeforce]

Managers will always direct experienced workers. That is why they are called Managers. They are there to provide a direction based on the corporate plan. You are there to work on aircraft in the safest, most efficient manner, to the benefit of the company, based on the Manager's direction.

I encourage you to finish up your degree (if you have not done that already. I know many AMT's who have BS/BA degrees and higher) and go into the management ranks and really make a difference. Frontline experience will give you a great background from which to lead.

I disagree with your statement about corporate America. You painted with too broad a brush there.

There are many great companies out there with top notch management teams. Look at Google, Amazon, Apple, GE, many of the oil companies, and several Bio-Tech firms come to mind. There are not too many Airlines that compare. That said, the airline industry is a loser in its current configuration. No management team can fully change any airline due to its dependence on oil as a major part of its cost structure. The industry is a roller coaster.

contrary to your belief, Most AMT's work in the safest, most efficient manner possible, and under the direction of the manager AA recreates the wheel on a nightly basis. The manager on the afternoon shift sets up the night shift to fail whether it be manning, workload or parts. I've witnessed this for the last 20+ years. Just because a person has a BS or MBA doesn't mean he or she is QUALIFIED to lead a team to victory, let alone lead an airline to fly at dawn. If that was the case AA would be making money instead of losing money and asking their front line employees to shoulder more concessions in order for AA to survive. Good managers work with their front line employees and provide them with the necessary resources to get the job done, one way or another. And good managers will weed out the slugs, union and non-union. At AA, we have too many slugs, too much executive greed and not enough "good" managers.
.
Let me be the first one to say "that as long as you do your job safely and efficiently, come to work on time, don't abuse your sick time and follow company policies......you don't need union representation, and you wouldn't have to fear losing your job. Everyone is entitled to making a mistake, we're human, but when it happens continuously, time to show that person the door, I'm sorry!

Dependence on oil has nothing to do with running an airline efficiently, making sure employees are held accountable and making sure the job gets done. If AA did those three things....we wouldn't be talking about BK.

 

[Frank Szabo]

well said, Frank.
And despite at times being branded as supportive of mgmt, the reality is that I believe that companies only succeed when all win... lopsided gains at the expense of one party is no win at all..... which is actually explains alot of the reason that I support the airline I do - because it recognizes that the me against you mindset is detrimental and has tried to avoid allowing one group to win at the expense of the other. Some may disagree but I happen to think that DL and WN are good examples in their segments of airlines that have practiced that belief... CO before it did as well, other than to note that CO employees made a whole lot less than other airline employees on average - a result of a lower seniority workforce due to CO's rapid growth.
.
It is also true that no-growth and highly competitive environments create competition for resources - and AA's mgmt has allowed that to happen... in many ways mirroring the larger trends in the US as a whole.
.
To argue that AA employees have fared better than others and attempt to slam other companies that have figured out how to adapt is nothing but an attempt to defend AA's mgmt team which has created damage that will take a very long time to overcome.
.
Few people here - of least of the mgmt fan teAAm - seem to want to accept that AA's climb to recovery will be much more difficult BECAUSE AA is the only airline that will have to dramatically restructure - or become extinct. Post 9/11, it was the low cost carriers against the network carriers - as a group. Now it is the other 85% of the industry against AA - and the other 85% is not divided by low fare carriers and network carriers... it is everyone out to get a piece of AA's revenue and there are plenty of indications that everyone is getting their fair share - and those revenue assaults will continue and increase as AA's restructuring kicks into high gear - or AA's losses increase. AA still carries alot of revenue and everyone else wants a piece of it. Trying to protect AA's revenue base while dealing w/ all of the things that have to occur in a restructuring - whether in BK or not - is a monumental task... and the only carrier that successfully restructured on its own has been CO - which ultimately chose to sell itself to UA.
What is clear is that the losses can't continue and AA employees unfortunately will pay AGAIN for much of the price of turning AA around.
It is indeed entirely possible that the pilots might be close to an agreement - but if so it doesn't solve the problem of the other labor groups and the fact that the only way the pilots can reach a contract that is acceptable to their demands is if someone else pays a disproportionate price to make up for the smaller cuts that the pilots otherwise would have to take.
My advise to those of you at AA is to get out if you can, build every contingency plan possible to limit your financial exposure, and do whatever it takes to minimize the time before you can leave the airline industry - with as much control of your own financial situation as possible.
.
The sad reality is that no one else will look after your own well-being... you need to do that for yourself.

It bothers me greatly to see getting the "thumbs down" treatment you're getting when you are actually beginning to see what why we're so damned angry. I'm not certain what that shows but I've got my ideas. Regardless, everything boils down to the lies of 2003.

Sure - any management group would like their employees to move towards the "free" side of their balance sheets to allow more money to be made by the respective corporation - but at the cost of being afraid to face the people one supposedly depends on?

I'm not sure what would remove the hate and discontent this so-called "management team" generated by "Dephi-ing" the entirety of their employees. One has to remember all three unions were accomplices in the lying so - one can only believe one's self. What would it take to generate the trust necessary to begin digging out of the hole?

I personally want blood and a helluva lot of it - yeah - as if. Right after the fourth Wednesday of next week.

Basically, I feel this "management team" is saying "Yep - we got you guys - now what are you going to do about it?" Isn't that a wonderful way to build the trust and loyalty of those you supposedly "need"?

Let the place burn to the ground with the business-types blaming the "unions", but the people of AA know better.

 

[limit]

Dunno. My wife has been working on her degree, and with very rare exception, all the professors are red diaper doper baby bleeding heart liberals. Greed is certainly mentioned, but usually in a very negative light. And that's in Red states. I can only imagine what's going on at the east coast Ivy Leauge schools where guys like John Kerry and Al Gore are held in high esteem...

I am certain we can agree to disagree but...
We are not on the same page here.
I am commending primarily on social responsibility and bringing up mandatory immersing on ,lets say,
Plato's Republic as was the case with the schools of yore, not just having to take a social study course to graduate.
Ivy league is red liberal ,up to the point where wall street is involved.
My sister's kid is a soph at Stern,and his cousin at UC.
Wall street is looking for a lot of math majors not social studies grads.

 

[tech2101]

contrary to your belief, Most AMT's work in the safest, most efficient manner possible, and under the direction of the manager AA recreates the wheel on a nightly basis.

Where did you get the impression that I "believed" that most AMT's did not work safely and efficiently?

I was one of those for 20 years prior to going on strike for you all left out there. We at NWA (the non-scabs) fought for what the TWU loves to give away.

I am now able to see the industry from an outsiders view and not as a disgruntled employee who loves what they do, yet they hate who they do it for.

You sound like you would make a good manager. I do agree that a college degree does not automatically make you a good leader or manager. Most places now have that as a minimum requirement to apply for the position. I assume AA is that way.

 

[tech2101]

I am certain we can agree to disagree but...
We are not on the same page here.
I am commending primarily on social responsibility and bringing up mandatory immersing on ,lets say,
Plato's Republic as was the case with the schools of yore, not just having to take a social study course to graduate.
Ivy league is red liberal ,up to the point where wall street is involved.
My sister's kid is a soph at Stern,and his cousin at UC.
Wall street is looking for a lot of math majors not social studies grads.

I have a friend who had a Masters in Psychology. That qualified him to be a Jersey Turnpike Toll Collector. At least that paid more than all the clinical psychologist jobs...

BAck on topic.

BK is not as easy as it was the last time an airline went in. The timeline has tightened up significantly.

 

[Frank Szabo]

contrary to your belief, Most AMT's work in the safest, most efficient manner possible, and under the direction of the manager AA recreates the wheel on a nightly basis. The manager on the afternoon shift sets up the night shift to fail whether it be manning, workload or parts. I've witnessed this for the last 20+ years. Just because a person has a BS or MBA doesn't mean he or she is QUALIFIED to lead a team to victory, let alone lead an airline to fly at dawn. If that was the case AA would be making money instead of losing money and asking their front line employees to shoulder more concessions in order for AA to survive. Good managers work with their front line employees and provide them with the necessary resources to get the job done, one way or another. And good managers will weed out the slugs, union and non-union. At AA, we have too many slugs, too much executive greed and not enough "good" managers.
.
Let me be the first one to say "that as long as you do your job safely and efficiently, come to work on time, don't abuse your sick time and follow company policies......you don't need union representation, and you wouldn't have to fear losing your job. Everyone is entitled to making a mistake, we're human, but when it happens continuously, time to show that person the door, I'm sorry!

Dependence on oil has nothing to do with running an airline efficiently, making sure employees are held accountable and making sure the job gets done. If AA did those three things....we wouldn't be talking about BK.

It's been my experience a degree:

1) Somehow destroys the common sense a person was born with.
2) Gets one a piece of paper that is no more than a third party's opinion as to whether or not one is willing to play the "game".
3) Gets one a custom fitted pair of kneepads for dealing with one's boss.

In reailty, a degree is no more than a piece of paper that opens doors, more often than not, for the wrong type of person. It gives a person a place to start and does not confer any knowledge of and by itself, as most managers would have people believe.

It's only 4-6 years of one's life spent trying to enter the sheepskin squad and in my particular line of work, something to laugh at.

FYI - I do agree with your answer to techie. He had to mention oil yet everyone else says "work rules and productivity" (the likes of which none of the management types will define for me even though I've asked.)

What are these mysterious things called "work rules" and how do they have any effect on the business at hand?

 

[FWAAA]

So many examples this Sunday of opening one's mouth (or typing on one's keyboard) and removing all doubt . . .