Here comes the BK threat from the company

[Mr Red]

I believe its indescribably naive if not outright stupid to believe that bankruptcy will get rid of an incompetent management team.
Many of our co workers will be out on the street bankrupt themselves before management ever comes close to feel even discomfort.
It seems that many of you have been living a different reality the last 10-15 years,and have not learned anything from the events that took at other US corporations ,not just aviation.
While I wish ,the current team must be changed ,I do not want to have anything to do with the bankruptcy courts,and I have more seniority than 87% of the guys on payroll.

The reality is that unregulated capitaliism turned our economy into the great ponzi scheme that pretty much broke the world ! trickle down at its best !

 

[Frank Szabo]

... snip

I understand that our CEO is an extremely busy person, but I feel that him and our president of AA are just so far disconnected that they are clueless in the everyday operation.

What possibly could a CEO find to do that was more important than properly managing the company he's been charged with, checking things out on occasion and doing whatever it takes to make said company "competitive with other businesses?

The "accountant disconnect" is well documented, FYI. Quite a few, but certainly not all, of these people have general problems relating to anything more social than a ledger or a balance sheet.

 

[Frank Szabo]

The reality is that unregulated capitaliism turned our economy into the great ponzi scheme that pretty much broke the world ! trickle down at its best !

Along with Capitalism comes a certain amount of social responsibility.

Now, an individual is praised for no reason other than being filthy rich, there once was a time when people were praised for being filthy rich and providing an opportunity for others to make a good living - generally being a good citizen.

We've seen the last of that unless some rather drastic actions are taken.

 

[imwithstupid]

If AA layoff 50% of it folks and put the rest to work. AA might have a fighting chance. These are words from your fellow employees.
There sure are many experts on most of the topics on this AA site if you guys or gals work for AA, why you do not fix your company.
If the company is in such disarray why do you not leave. It seems you guys hate your company and your Union just as much. The posts here are very intertaining.

 

[limit]

Along with Capitalism comes a certain amount of social responsibility.

Now, an individual is praised for no reason other than being filthy rich, there once was a time when people were praised for being filthy rich and providing an opportunity for others to make a good living - generally being a good citizen.

We've seen the last of that unless some rather drastic actions are taken.

There was a time in the distant past that been educated at a University meant a couple of years of classical studies ,regardless of field of study.
It was not uncommon for college students in tech and financial fields to read and study the classics , even as far as taking courses on Cicero and Virgil, Plato ,Socrates, Polybius, Aristotle and the like.
The Harvard's and Princeton's of our time and day develop leaders that are mostly taught to follow the"Greed is good", mantra of present .
Social responsibility is a phrase for the masses now.

 

[WorldTraveler]

Along with Capitalism comes a certain amount of social responsibility.

Now, an individual is praised for no reason other than being filthy rich, there once was a time when people were praised for being filthy rich and providing an opportunity for others to make a good living - generally being a good citizen.

We've seen the last of that unless some rather drastic actions are taken.

well said, Frank.
And despite at times being branded as supportive of mgmt, the reality is that I believe that companies only succeed when all win... lopsided gains at the expense of one party is no win at all..... which is actually explains alot of the reason that I support the airline I do - because it recognizes that the me against you mindset is detrimental and has tried to avoid allowing one group to win at the expense of the other. Some may disagree but I happen to think that DL and WN are good examples in their segments of airlines that have practiced that belief... CO before it did as well, other than to note that CO employees made a whole lot less than other airline employees on average - a result of a lower seniority workforce due to CO's rapid growth.
.
It is also true that no-growth and highly competitive environments create competition for resources - and AA's mgmt has allowed that to happen... in many ways mirroring the larger trends in the US as a whole.
.
To argue that AA employees have fared better than others and attempt to slam other companies that have figured out how to adapt is nothing but an attempt to defend AA's mgmt team which has created damage that will take a very long time to overcome.
.
Few people here - of least of the mgmt fan teAAm - seem to want to accept that AA's climb to recovery will be much more difficult BECAUSE AA is the only airline that will have to dramatically restructure - or become extinct. Post 9/11, it was the low cost carriers against the network carriers - as a group. Now it is the other 85% of the industry against AA - and the other 85% is not divided by low fare carriers and network carriers... it is everyone out to get a piece of AA's revenue and there are plenty of indications that everyone is getting their fair share - and those revenue assaults will continue and increase as AA's restructuring kicks into high gear - or AA's losses increase. AA still carries alot of revenue and everyone else wants a piece of it. Trying to protect AA's revenue base while dealing w/ all of the things that have to occur in a restructuring - whether in BK or not - is a monumental task... and the only carrier that successfully restructured on its own has been CO - which ultimately chose to sell itself to UA.
What is clear is that the losses can't continue and AA employees unfortunately will pay AGAIN for much of the price of turning AA around.
It is indeed entirely possible that the pilots might be close to an agreement - but if so it doesn't solve the problem of the other labor groups and the fact that the only way the pilots can reach a contract that is acceptable to their demands is if someone else pays a disproportionate price to make up for the smaller cuts that the pilots otherwise would have to take.
My advise to those of you at AA is to get out if you can, build every contingency plan possible to limit your financial exposure, and do whatever it takes to minimize the time before you can leave the airline industry - with as much control of your own financial situation as possible.
.
The sad reality is that no one else will look after your own well-being... you need to do that for yourself.

 

[toroshark]

So did AA slide across a proposal to the APA that stated either accept or bankruptcy?

 

[Super FLUF]

So did AA slide across a proposal to the APA that stated either accept or bankruptcy?

No. Next Thursday "negotiations" resume. We are expecting AA management to drop their turd in the punch bowl shortly thereafter.


Negotiating Update for August 19, 2011

At the end of April, the APA and management negotiating committees met in Ft. Lauderdale to jumpstart the negotiating process by working through scheduling-related issues that contained several areas of common ground. Weekly meetings have been held since that time. Slow but steady progress has occurred on sequence protection, an overhauled reserve system, expanded premium pay provisions, and a completely redesigned Trip Trade System.

Despite the significant and positive improvements made in these key areas, the fact remains there is a substantial disparity between the parties on a wide range of important open items, including scope, benefits, pension, disability, sick and vacation. This stark reality has been magnified over the past several weeks during talks on scope and benefits. After our talks in Washington D.C., management took a brief recess from direct formal negotiations and indicated they are working on a comprehensive proposal. We are scheduled to meet again on Wednesday, Aug. 24.

After five years of bargaining, management continues to seek concessions in several key areas, including the following highlights:
Scope – Commuter Air Carriers
o Commuter codeshare on 150 70- to 76-seat aircraft
o Option to replace 50-seat RJ and ATR with 70-seat props
o Elimination of differentiation between owned/non-owned
o Transfer of AMR slots (currently being used by Eagle) to “independent” Eagle or other commuter air carriers
Scope – Domestic Codeshare
o Expand domestic codeshare to fill in “gaps” in the AA network
Scope – International
o Relief on International Block Hour Baseline (two-year test period for new routes before counting toward the baseline)
o Management has shown no interest in providing “proportionality” for JBA/JBV arrangements
Pension
o Lookback/lock-in feature no longer available for new B Plan contributions
o New-hire pension = 401(k) with 8 percent contribution and 4 percent match
Medical and Dental
o Eliminate Carey Award methodology that governs medical inflation
o Establish set medical premiums over the life of the contract from 14 percent (current APA pilot cost share) to 25 percent cost share
§ EE + family = premium increase of $2,600/year by 2016
o Double the dental benefit with a nearly fourfold increase in premium
o Dental premium = EE + family
§ Current – $16/month
§ Date of signing – $56/month
Sick
o No change to yearly sick accrual
o Establish a sick verification program
o Amend rapid-reaccrual provisions
o Eliminate long-term sick provision (46 hours max while on reserve)
Vacation
o No change to yearly accrual schedule or value of a vacation day
o Amend floating vacation provisions by allowing a pilot with more than seven (7) days accrued vacation to be scheduled for a minimum of seven (7) days vacation
o At management option, a pilot may request to drop any or all of the pilot’s scheduled vacation

Based on management’s current view of the negotiating environment at this point in time, there is not a tentative agreement out there that would be acceptable to your Negotiating Committee, your APA leadership and most importantly, AA pilots. The gap between positions is substantial and it will take serious moves at the table from management to bring negotiations into a zone where a deal has any chance of coming together. The feedback we have received from you on a regular basis makes it crystal clear that a tentative agreement must address certain issues to be ratified.

Now more than ever, we need each and every one of you to stay informed, engaged and prepare for what could be a very difficult process to finish out these negotiations. We will be updating the APA leadership and membership on developments at the table.

Your APA Negotiating Committee

 

[care2purchasefood?]

No. Next Thursday "negotiations" resume. We are expecting AA management to drop their turd in the punch bowl shortly thereafter.


Negotiating Update for August 19, 2011

At the end of April, the APA and management negotiating committees met in Ft. Lauderdale to jumpstart the negotiating process by working through scheduling-related issues that contained several areas of common ground. Weekly meetings have been held since that time. Slow but steady progress has occurred on sequence protection, an overhauled reserve system, expanded premium pay provisions, and a completely redesigned Trip Trade System.

Despite the significant and positive improvements made in these key areas, the fact remains there is a substantial disparity between the parties on a wide range of important open items, including scope, benefits, pension, disability, sick and vacation. This stark reality has been magnified over the past several weeks during talks on scope and benefits. After our talks in Washington D.C., management took a brief recess from direct formal negotiations and indicated they are working on a comprehensive proposal. We are scheduled to meet again on Wednesday, Aug. 24.

After five years of bargaining, management continues to seek concessions in several key areas, including the following highlights:
Scope – Commuter Air Carriers
o Commuter codeshare on 150 70- to 76-seat aircraft
o Option to replace 50-seat RJ and ATR with 70-seat props
o Elimination of differentiation between owned/non-owned
o Transfer of AMR slots (currently being used by Eagle) to “independent” Eagle or other commuter air carriers
Scope – Domestic Codeshare
o Expand domestic codeshare to fill in “gaps” in the AA network
Scope – International
o Relief on International Block Hour Baseline (two-year test period for new routes before counting toward the baseline)
o Management has shown no interest in providing “proportionality” for JBA/JBV arrangements
Pension
o Lookback/lock-in feature no longer available for new B Plan contributions
o New-hire pension = 401(k) with 8 percent contribution and 4 percent match
Medical and Dental
o Eliminate Carey Award methodology that governs medical inflation
o Establish set medical premiums over the life of the contract from 14 percent (current APA pilot cost share) to 25 percent cost share
§ EE + family = premium increase of $2,600/year by 2016
o Double the dental benefit with a nearly fourfold increase in premium
o Dental premium = EE + family
§ Current – $16/month
§ Date of signing – $56/month
Sick
o No change to yearly sick accrual
o Establish a sick verification program
o Amend rapid-reaccrual provisions
o Eliminate long-term sick provision (46 hours max while on reserve)
Vacation
o No change to yearly accrual schedule or value of a vacation day
o Amend floating vacation provisions by allowing a pilot with more than seven (7) days accrued vacation to be scheduled for a minimum of seven (7) days vacation
o At management option, a pilot may request to drop any or all of the pilot’s scheduled vacation

Based on management’s current view of the negotiating environment at this point in time, there is not a tentative agreement out there that would be acceptable to your Negotiating Committee, your APA leadership and most importantly, AA pilots. The gap between positions is substantial and it will take serious moves at the table from management to bring negotiations into a zone where a deal has any chance of coming together. The feedback we have received from you on a regular basis makes it crystal clear that a tentative agreement must address certain issues to be ratified.

Now more than ever, we need each and every one of you to stay informed, engaged and prepare for what could be a very difficult process to finish out these negotiations. We will be updating the APA leadership and membership on developments at the table.

Your APA Negotiating Committee

They're such douche bags! BK is the talk on the line these days as well. Let them make the threat of BK. They did it in 2003 and didn't file and they I doubt they will do it again. Sorry Arpey, but your bluff is not going to work again! KMA!

 

[jimntx]

The real question is will we ALL stand firm and tell the company that they can shut it down if this is the best they can offer? Particularly, if the executives still receive bonusses whether we make a profit or not! Now, if executives will take a pay cut to 1997 wages, and forego ALL bonusses for 8 straight years, we might have something to talk about. Can you imagine those poor executives trying to manage on only $200K to $400K per year?

 

[Bob Owens]

The real question is will we ALL stand firm and tell the company that they can shut it down if this is the best they can offer? Particularly, if the executives still receive bonusses whether we make a profit or not! Now, if executives will take a pay cut to 1997 wages, and forego ALL bonusses for 8 straight years, we might have something to talk about. Can you imagine those poor executives trying to manage on only $200K to $400K per year?

Speak for yourself, even if they took paycuts I dont care, I still want my compensation restored. Its not a matter of spite its a matter of necessity. The fact that they took raises only exposes their "let them eat cake " attitude.

As far as BK can anyone remember a time when AA had more cash or brought in more revenue per worker? I remember Crandall boasting he had a $500 million dollar war chest to beat the pilots if they didnt cower to his demands, now $3billion is bankrupt. The fact is BK is always a possibility for any company, and its almost never the fault of labor. We've nearly doubled our productivity, AA revenues have soared while their labor costs have been slashed, a triple bonus, obviously the problem lies elsewhere and its not just fuel. All we are doing by agreeing to continue to work for less is making other people richer. If they cant be reasonable we need to shut it down so nobody gets anything.

 

[tech2101]

Why is AA paying these managers six figures, but they need suggestions from lowly AMT's to do THEIR job????

If they did not ask you, I believe that you would then come on here and post "all they have to do is ask us what the problems are"...

Good manager's always seek input from the the people who are in the trenches doing the hard work.

 

[Bob Owens]

If they did not ask you, I believe that you would then come on here and post "all they have to do is ask us what the problems are"...

Good manager's always seek input from the the people who are in the trenches doing the hard work.

Fair enough, but they are hiring outside consultants to ask us. If managers cant even talk to their own people then there's a problem with that management.

 

[tech2101]

There was a time in the distant past that been educated at a University meant a couple of years of classical studies ,regardless of field of study.
It was not uncommon for college students in tech and financial fields to read and study the classics , even as far as taking courses on Cicero and Virgil, Plato ,Socrates, Polybius, Aristotle and the like.

It is still that way. You will have 2 years of "common body of knowledge courses" before moving on to your major.

The Harvard's and Princeton's of our time and day develop leaders that are mostly taught to follow the"Greed is good", mantra of present . Social responsibility is a phrase for the masses now.

That is a false statement. Our University professors do not teach greed. Greed is entrenched in a capitalist society. No teaching necessary.

 

[tech2101]

Fair enough, but they are hiring outside consultants to ask us.

Bringing in consultants is not new. I would hope they were hired to take an "outside" view of the entire operation they were tasked with reviewing. A good audit/review from a reputable consulting firm can be invaluable so long as the advice given after the review is actually followed and put into practice. I have seen many of these done only to have the management team at the end ignore all the recommendations of the consulting group.

managers cant even talk to their own people then there's a problem with that management.

Agreed.