Has a deal been made?

[Reed Richards]

I believe that you are correct with respect to the company DJ slowdown and the eventual "the Nic is it". I believe that what the company really wants is the current cost savings, but cannot sacrifice the ability to attract future merger financing. "Position A" for the company would be to not be obligated to the increased cost of a JCBA, but to be able to exercise the option,if necessary for future consolidation. By the way, did you read the transcript?

I don't think "the Nic is it" is eventual, but give you credit for working that in. Does not matter.

I read the transcript. Think in the end Judge Silver may have cut to the chase..is a union required to use bargaining positions from a previous union? Specifically, does the Company have to bargain for the Nic? If you tell a Company they have to negotiate a certain way, you are essentially telling the union the same.

Briefs will not have the PHX circus atmosphere. I think Judge Silver knows where she is going. No DFR II here, not in her court.

To quote a much smarter friend of mine..you cannot have two men on second. Only one bargaining agent, and if they were bound by the sins of their predecessor, why start a new union in the first place? A union is free to negotiate at ANY time, pre and post ratification of any CBL, LOA, Side letter, etc. Why would the courts limit them at any point in that process, if it is the members that will ratify?

Said it earlier...I predict she admonishes both sides for not getting this settled. Tells the Company to negotiate as required (no Nic, no nothing from the court) and refuses to give them any immunity in doing so.

If she does otherwise, we are years away from a decision.

RR

 

[fifidriver]

I don't think "the Nic is it" is eventual, but give you credit for working that in. Does not matter.

I read the transcript. Think in the end Judge Silver may have cut to the chase..is a union required to use bargaining positions from a previous union? Specifically, does the Company have to bargain for the Nic? If you tell a Company they have to negotiate a certain way, you are essentially telling the union the same.

Briefs will not have the PHX circus atmosphere. I think Judge Silver knows where she is going. No DFR II here, not in her court.

To quote a much smarter friend of mine..you cannot have two men on second. Only one bargaining agent, and if they were bound by the sins of their predecessor, why start a new union in the first place? A union is free to negotiate at ANY time, pre and post ratification of any CBL, LOA, Side letter, etc. Why would the courts limit them at any point in that process, if it is the members that will ratify?

Said it earlier...I predict she admonishes both sides for not getting this settled. Tells the Company to negotiate as required (no Nic, no nothing from the court) and refuses to give them any immunity in doing so.

If she does otherwise, we are years away from a decision.


I understand your position.


RR

 

[fifidriver]

oops... sorry about that. not sure what went wrong; possible TUI. (typing under the influence)

 

[Reed Richards]

oops... sorry about that. not sure what went wrong; possible TUI. (typing under the influence)

Happens to us all!

Cut and paste to Word or temp email, compose, and then post. That way you have good spell check and the message sitting there in reserve in Word/email if you err.

RR

 

[BoeingBoy]

Happens to us all!

Cut and paste to Word or temp email

Or Notepad since the forum software doesn't recognize some of the formatting niceties of Word/email. Have no idea what, or even if Mac has an equivalent.

Jim

 

[strangiatotheme]

Or Notepad since the forum software doesn't recognize some of the formatting niceties of Word/email. Have no idea what, or even if Mac has an equivalent.

Jim

It does, it's called TextEdit. It's a lot faster than firing up Word, and even has a spell check.

 

[Rookie Jr]

I don't think "the Nic is it" is eventual, but give you credit for working that in. Does not matter.

I read the transcript. Think in the end Judge Silver may have cut to the chase..is a union required to use bargaining positions from a previous union? Specifically, does the Company have to bargain for the Nic? If you tell a Company they have to negotiate a certain way, you are essentially telling the union the same.

Briefs will not have the PHX circus atmosphere. I think Judge Silver knows where she is going. No DFR II here, not in her court.

To quote a much smarter friend of mine..you cannot have two men on second. Only one bargaining agent, and if they were bound by the sins of their predecessor, why start a new union in the first place? A union is free to negotiate at ANY time, pre and post ratification of any CBL, LOA, Side letter, etc. Why would the courts limit them at any point in that process, if it is the members that will ratify?

Said it earlier...I predict she admonishes both sides for not getting this settled. Tells the Company to negotiate as required (no Nic, no nothing from the court) and refuses to give them any immunity in doing so.

If she does otherwise, we are years away from a decision.

RR

Wow! Posted from deep, deep in dreamland.

Oh, and "if she does otherwise" you will be calling her a senile old bat and no longer someone who "knows what she is doing".

You guys are a real trip!

 

[NYCDelta]

The last I heard former NW and real DL crews still don't fly together on the same airplane.

Pilots have been since the merger. The NMB upheld the AFA election vote (no union) so the NWA F/A's were immediately changed to the DL payscales. The merged seniority list takes effect in May 2012 and base transfers will begin in June 2012.

 

[luvn737s]

To quote a much smarter friend of mine..you cannot have two men on second. Only one bargaining agent, and if they were bound by the sins of their predecessor, why start a new union in the first place? A union is free to negotiate at ANY time, pre and post ratification of any CBL, LOA, Side letter, etc. Why would the courts limit them at any point in that process, if it is the members that will ratify?

Said it earlier...I predict she admonishes both sides for not getting this settled. Tells the Company to negotiate as required (no Nic, no nothing from the court) and refuses to give them any immunity in doing so.

If she does otherwise, we are years away from a decision.

RR

You might be correct wrt to the freedom of a union to bargain, but the circumstances surrounding a seniority integration and first joint contract along with the obligation to abide by an arbitrators decision trump those freedoms. If the company gets a green light (or at least no red light) from Silver to stick to the Nic, they will put an all hands on deck effort to put something in front of the pilots that will pass at 50%+1 while USAPA waits for their appeal to come out. Once the contract is in place, the company could care less if USAPA wants to try to change the seniority list down the road.

If USAPA tries to unify the east to vote down all T/A's, they will quickly find themselves in front of yet another judge. They will hold their noses and present and defend the NIC and the pilots will finally have their say over whether the Nic is the boogeyman USAPA has tried to portray.

 

[Reed Richards]

You might be correct wrt to the freedom of a union to bargain, but the circumstances surrounding a seniority integration and first joint contract along with the obligation to abide by an arbitrators decision trump those freedoms.

How could I have missed that. The all encompassing "seniority integration and first contract EXCEPTION"

You win. Unions are free to bargain (as I have argued) except in this circumstance.

RR

 

[damajagua]

How Good Companies Use Bankruptcy to Their Benefit
By Tamara Rutter | More Articles
December 8, 2011 | Comments (0)

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By now you're aware that American Airlines parent company AMR (NYSE: AMR  ) filed for Chapter 11 protection. As the latest major U.S. carrier to file for bankruptcy protection, American faces significant challenges to keep its business flying. Let's look at rival carriers, and how their respective restructuring plans helped them become more competitive after emerging from bankruptcy.

Before we delve in, it's important to understand that shareholders at the time of bankruptcy usually lose everything. Businesses operating under Chapter 11 protection will generally be delisted from major stock exchanges.

When these companies go public after bankruptcy, new stock is issued as part of their reorganization plan. It's essential to understand that the old stock and new stock usually have no relation, even if they share the same ticker symbol.

An industry trend
American joins competitors Delta (NYSE: DAL  ) and United Airlines in seeking help from the bankruptcy courts. United filed for Chapter 11 protection in 2002, after the company was unable to secure a government loan guarantee to avoid bankruptcy.

At the time of filing, United's assets totaled $25.1 billion. In 2006, United emerged from what was the most expensive airline bankruptcy in history. The carrier was able to reduce its average annual costs by nearly $7 billion -- putting it back on the path to profitability. United parent UAL Corp. then merged with Continental in 2010 to become United Continental (NYSE: UAL  ) .

Over the past 12 months, United Continental has reported more than $33 billion in revenues, with a profit of $653 million. Compare that to American's $23.6 billion in revenues, and bottom-line loss of $982 million. Clearly, American needs to become more cost competitive if it wants to survive in the long term.

Delta flies into bankruptcy
Delta Airlines filed in 2005. One of the largest airlines in terms of passengers carried, Delta's assets totaled $21.8 billion at the time of its filing.

Two years later, the American Airlines rival emerged from bankruptcy stronger and more profitable. By restructuring much of its $20.5 billion hole of debt, Delta was able to remove unprofitable routes, reduce its fleet of aircrafts, and lower expenses -- eliminating about $2 billion in annual costs.

Additionally, by capitalizing on international routes with the highest profit potential, the carrier was able to successfully expand its global business. Delta now offers service to 351 destinations in 64 countries on six continents.

Clear for landing
In 2007, the airline emerged from bankruptcy having posted four straight quarters of profits. By the end of that year, Delta was able to reduce its net debt from $17 billion to $7.5 billion.

The airline left bankruptcy with $2.5 billion in exit financing from six leading banks including JPMorgan, Goldman Sachs, and Bank of America's Merrill Lynch. Delta used the financing to make payments for exiting bankruptcy and to boost its cash balance.

By taking these steps, Delta was able to lower costs and improve its capital structure -- issues that American Airlines hopes to tackle through the Chapter 11 process.

An unfair advantage
American Airline's costs have dramatically outgrown the costs of its rivals. Both Delta and United Airlines used the courts to reorganize their debt, while American was left at a disadvantage.

As American looks to restructure, the company could reduce its workforce and minimize travel on unprofitable routes -- similar to other airlines before it. However, it is business as usual for the airline, as operations remain on schedule heading into the holiday travel season.

Blue skies or a crash landing?
Luckily, the company had $4.1 billion in cash and short-term investments when it filed for protection. This cash hoard may help American retain more leverage during bankruptcy, as it won't have to rely as much on outside financing to keep its business flying.

The money is more than double the $1.5 billion Delta had when it filed in 2005, as well as the $800 million under United Airlines when it sought protection in 2002.

American hopes bankruptcy will help strengthen its balance sheet and build a foundation for long-term success. Tim Horton, the new CEO of AMR, has little doubt about the airline's eventual recovery. In fact, Horton confirmed a jet deal with Boeing (NYSE: BA  ) and Airbus to deliver American's new narrow-body aircrafts.

But don't worry; the contracts for new planes are hardly a splurge. The jets come equipped with General Electric's (NYSE: GE  ) new Leap X's engines, which should boost fuel efficiency by 15% -- ultimately cutting down fuel costs for the airline.

AMR faces significant challenges and tough competition going forward. However, it wouldn't be the first U.S. airline to exit bankruptcy as a stronger version of its former self. Click here to track AMR's journey to profitability with My Watchlist, a free Motley Fool service.

Add United Continental Holdings to My Watchlist.

 

[Whatnow?]

Here's a thought I'll throw out there for all of us armchair-know-it-all-analysts, and I include myself, what's the possibility of, instead of a merger with US, DP leaving US and going over to AA for its restructuring? In the last paragragh of the WSJ article, dated 11/29 and reporting AMR's filing, Gerard Arpey is quoted in his departing words to AA as saying concerning the restructuring, "...require not only a reevaluation of every aspect of our business,"....but a Chairman and CEO, "who will bring restructuring experience and a different perspective to the process." Both DP and Tom Horton know each other and have a history together at AA. For all intents and purposes, DP's job here at US is done. Yes I know, pilot and flight attendant contracts are still separate, but blame for that is three sided (company, Nic, and weak union leadership) and much of Nic and weak union leadership will be resolved in any representational vote. Even with separate east/west ops and yet realizing all synergies, we've been profitable. DP has made some huge mistakes with the HP/US merger and the DL thing was one of his dumbest ideas, but the man can learn from his mistakes and take that knowledge to AA. Just askin'

That's an idea nobody has even thought of.....with USAirways basically in a no growth period for the next couple of years and marginally profitable holding pattern, DP could leave US and go to AA for their restructuring and then 2-3 years down the road head off his merger with the 2 carriers! Wouldn't that be a kick in the pants!

 

[signals]

Yeah? And at the last AFA Int'l meeting in Las Vegas why were the leaders of APFA so far up Veda's skirt? You see, APFA is one step from bankrupt right now. They will barely have the money for lawyers, etc to confront AA during the process they are set to go through. If APFA were wise they'd be up CWA's coochie trying to umbrella themselves for STRENGTH instead of trucking along with the gas light on. As for numbers, I couldn't care less if AA f/a's outnumber US f/a's as the law prevents them from pulling another move like they did with TWA. I won't even mention KARMA right now. As for wishing unto others what happened to US, well you GET what you GIVE!

Karma? The great wheel where the odds get even? Well, don't look now but the karma archer is aiming at U! You may think me just another US hater, but it is justified. Assume what you want.

What's funny is that U actually believe that this merger is going to happen.

 

[ebwgs]

signals:

What's even funnier is reading the terrified post of a frightened little troll who thinks he/she knows what's gonna happen in this bankruptcy. And yes karma has visited itself upon the shores of your little AArrogant oasis of denial and grandiosity. And karma has slapped you down. With that said, believe me: You have yet to fully appreciate the comeuppance that that karma will impose on you. You should be prepping yourself for the reaming that awaits your BK journey and jettison your grandiose dreams rooted in denial.

 

[AAviator]

signals:

What's even funnier is reading the terrified post of a frightened little troll who thinks he/she knows what's gonna happen in this bankruptcy. And yes karma has visited itself upon the shores of your little AArrogant oasis of denial and grandiosity. And karma has slapped you down. With that said, believe me: You have yet to fully appreciate the comeuppance that that karma will impose on you. You should be prepping yourself for the reaming that awaits your BK journey and jettison your grandiose dreams rooted in denial.

Lemme guess.

USA320PILOT has taken some much deserved time off and has returned to his home planet of Kepler 22b, and has appointed you DDR for his voice of logic, certainty and reason.

Good luck to "U".

Randon wsj article I haven't seen posted yet:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204083204577080441875953280.html

From the article:

" Michael Boyd, of aviation consultancy Boyd Group International, admits AMR has pricing problems but says its network is sound and that emerging from bankruptcy court the airline should be "a terrifying competitor."