Has a deal been made?

[ChockJockey]

A joint CBA.

So it's really just that easy, the company can negotiate one without expecting any kind of fuss over seniority agreements or any kind of litigation in going forward along those lines? Management hasn't sought judicial clarification on their standing to do so or anything like that?

 

[700UW]

A CBA doesnt take over 6 years to negotiate.

Agreements on seniority were agreed upon, move forward all ready.

Explain why the AFA doesnt have a joint CBA, their seniority issues were settled shortly after the merger.

 

[ChockJockey]

A CBA doesnt take over 6 years to negotiate.

Clearly it does, six years at least.

Agreements on seniority were agreed upon, move forward all ready.

Oh they are? What is it both parties finally agreed to, was it Nic or DOH? I have to admit I don't have time to follow the pilot thread, but it sounds like I missed some pretty important news.

Explain why the AFA doesnt have a joint CBA, their seniority issues were settled shortly after the merger.

I thought they were waiting on resolution of the pilot situation? Maybe one of them could enlighten us?

 

[john john]

Please explain specifically what it is that US management needs to do to merge the Pilot and FA groups that they aren't currently doing.

Negotiate a joint contract that will pass

 

[FWAAA]

Oh they are? What is it both parties finally agreed to, was it Nic or DOH? I have to admit I don't have time to follow the pilot thread, but it sounds like I missed some pretty important news.

When the Nic award was rendered, all pilots (east and west) were members of ALPA. Looks to me like seniority was decided. Unfortunately, the view that an arbitrated decision should be binding on all of the members of a labor union hasn't yet carried the day.

 

[flybynite]

Clearly it does, six years at least.


Oh they are? What is it both parties finally agreed to, was it Nic or DOH? I have to admit I don't have time to follow the pilot thread, but it sounds like I missed some pretty important news.


I thought they were waiting on resolution of the pilot situation? Maybe one of them could enlighten us?

The f/a's have DOH. Always had that.

The East contract isn't amenable until the end of this year.

Some of the east issues such as co-pairing trips does depend on a resolution on the pilot contract but we're working around that too.

 

[ChockJockey]

Negotiate a joint contract that will pass

So the pilot's seniority dispute is no obstacle in obtaining a new contract? Aren't negotiations now under way? It's my understanding that the company has the Nic as the agreed upon seniority list; will USAPA negotiate any contract that accepts that? If not, how can the company "negotiate a joint contract that will pass"? Doesn't management have a justifiable concern that depending on what's negotiated they could be subject to litigation? Just looking for some answers...

Unfortunately, the view that an arbitrated decision should be binding on all of the members of a labor union hasn't yet carried the day.

Surely this is the fault of management then?

The f/a's have DOH. Always had that.

The East contract isn't amenable until the end of this year.

Some of the east issues such as co-pairing trips does depend on a resolution on the pilot contract but we're working around that too.

Interesting, thank you.

 

[nycbusdriver]

Please explain specifically what it is that US management needs to do to merge the Pilot and FA groups that they aren't currently doing.

Throw more money "than God can count" at them.

 

[luvn737s]

Throw more money "than God can count" at them.

delete

 

[BoeingBoy]

If the merger was completed there would be no east and west metal, it would all be US Airways. The fact that there is not a combined pilot group and fa group shows the merger is not complete, and it costs extra money to still have to separate airlines flying.

But not as much extra as if there were still two completely separate airlines. Most of the "synergies" have been realized. Merging the pilots and FAs won't add that much.

Jim

 

[fifidriver]

Please explain specifically what it is that US management needs to do to merge the Pilot and FA groups that they aren't currently doing.

Your question would appear to indicate that you believe that the company's efforts (or lack of effort) to merge the employee groups has been a consistent effort over the last 4-6 years. I believe that until now, at least in the case of the pilots, there has been no financial incentive for Mr. Parker to merge the respective groups. In fact, there has been considerable financial dis-incentive to put the groups together, as that will immediately result in increased costs of upwards of 100 million dollars annually, with synergistic cost savings of only about 10 million per annum, as a result of a new pilot contract. (source: internal crew news sessions) Mr. Parker has been quoted as saying, " the cost pales in comparison with the savings". Only recently, in the company's Declaratory Judgement request, has the company indicated that it concurs with the west pilots arbitrated seniority list, possibly indicating an ulterior motive or incentive to complete that portion of the merger at this time, for whatever reasons that they deem important at this time.

 

[ChockJockey]

Your question would appear to indicate that you believe that the company's efforts (or lack of effort) to merge the employee groups has been a consistent effort over the last 4-6 years.

No, that's why I asked what I asked. I'm simply testing the claim that management is responsible for the HP/US merger being incomplete, which many seem to happily hold to.

I believe that until now, at least in the case of the pilots, there has been no financial incentive for Mr. Parker to merge the respective groups. In fact, there has been considerable financial dis-incentive to put the groups together, as that will immediately result in increased costs of upwards of 100 million dollars annually, with synergistic cost savings of only about 10 million per annum, as a result of a new pilot contract. (source: internal crew news sessions) Mr. Parker has been quoted as saying, " the cost pales in comparison with the savings". Only recently, in the company's Declaratory Judgement request, has the company indicated that it concurs with the west pilots arbitrated seniority list, possibly indicating an ulterior motive or incentive to complete that portion of the merger at this time, for whatever reasons that they deem important at this time.

Very interesting. Thanks for the insight. My question now is, even if DP had the incentive the entire time, was there anything he could have reasonably done in order to facilitate a single work group under a single contract? It seems to me that the essential points of contention at the heart of the pilot dispute, being internal union business, would be well insulated from the intentions of management.

If you're correct, and DP has been capitalizing on the pilot dispute for the better part of those years, wouldn't his "inability to close the merger" thus avoiding hundreds of millions of dollars in increased costs during that time be seen as a credit to him rather than a failing in the eyes of those who would be most interested in helping to finance an additional merger? So if we are to hold management responsible for not having closed the merger we'd have to accept that it's on the grounds of shrewdness and not on bungling incompetence as most seem to imply when they bring up the point...

 

[Reed Richards]

Only recently, in the company's Declaratory Judgement request, has the company indicated that it concurs with the west pilots arbitrated seniority list, possibly indicating an ulterior motive or incentive to complete that portion of the merger at this time, for whatever reasons that they deem important at this time.

I would argue with you about that perception, but I have no idea what Parker really thinks about our seniority problems. Kirby has given hints that both sides are too extreme, but his public persona is no more telling than Doug's. These guys are good.

Company did a brilliant job of using the DJ to slow things down, and can (so far) simply say "never mind" if current events required things to immediately move on.

All I am saying is what would the Company really want..what gives them the most freedom going forward? I say having the Nic imposed gives them the least flexibility. USAPA appeals and two or more years elapse. If they are told to negotiate, they again control the timeline. Only then will we find out what list they want. I personally don't think they care a whit....just as long as it meets their original criteria.

And the only way out of "the Nic is it" (if they find themselves in a rush) is to never merge the two groups...or really pay up. Compare and Contrast. Discuss among yourselves.

RR

 

[fifidriver]

I would argue with you about that perception, but I have no idea what Parker really thinks about our seniority problems. Kirby has given hints that both sides are too extreme, but his public persona is no more telling than Doug's. These guys are good.

Company did a brilliant job of using the DJ to slow things down, and can (so far) simply say "never mind" if current events required things to immediately move on.

All I am saying is what would the Company really want..what gives them the most freedom going forward? I say having the Nic imposed gives them the least flexibility. USAPA appeals and two or more years elapse. If they are told to negotiate, they again control the timeline. Only then will we find out what list they want. I personally don't think they care a whit....just as long as it meets their original criteria.

And the only way out of "the Nic is it" (if they find themselves in a rush) is to never merge the two groups...or really pay up. Compare and Contrast. Discuss among yourselves.

RR

I believe that you are correct with respect to the company DJ slowdown and the eventual "the Nic is it". I believe that what the company really wants is the current cost savings, but cannot sacrifice the ability to attract future merger financing. "Position A" for the company would be to not be obligated to the increased cost of a JCBA, but to be able to exercise the option,if necessary for future consolidation. By the way, did you read the transcript?

 

[Travelpro72]

Typical. Wish unto others what has happened to U! Be careful what U wish for. APFA out numbers AFA.

Yeah? And at the last AFA Int'l meeting in Las Vegas why were the leaders of APFA so far up Veda's skirt? You see, APFA is one step from bankrupt right now. They will barely have the money for lawyers, etc to confront AA during the process they are set to go through. If APFA were wise they'd be up CWA's coochie trying to umbrella themselves for STRENGTH instead of trucking along with the gas light on. As for numbers, I couldn't care less if AA f/a's outnumber US f/a's as the law prevents them from pulling another move like they did with TWA. I won't even mention KARMA right now. As for wishing unto others what happened to US, well you GET what you GIVE!