Get your walking papers
- Thread starter Come Fly with Me
- Start date
I don't think AMFA is totally to blame for that mess. I believe they should have struck much earlier. NW gave them an offer that downright sucked and they sat on it. This allowed NW to prepare for the strike so it became a non event. Then no other union at NW would back the strike so it had no teeth.
Kev3188
Veteran
Actually, the IAM advocates date of hire in classification. No more, no less. AFA wants DOH as well...
No "back of the bus" for anyone.
Now that's funny! In an ignorant kind of way... :blink:
The name will follow Delta as long as there are scabs on the pay roll, there are 4000 + that will see to this.
wings396
Veteran
- Aug 20, 2002
- 3,672
- 1,122
Putting anyone at the "back of the bus" in a situation like this would be a disaster. If anything like this were to take place, there would be a very bitter and divided workgroup for years to come. Does anyone have an idea when and if any voting is to take place? At this point, it would be very wise of the current DL workforce to vote in favor of representation.
putting one person ahead of someone else who is technically junior to someone senior would cause problems.. times that by thousands and it would be a nightmare, and no amount of money would fix that and that problem would never resolve..ever.
if for some reason this issue ends in arbitration the rational and fair thing to do would still be to ask for DOH...trying to take advantage of a situation by jumping ahead of someone is not only unfair it shows true character...selfishness (personally will not support being placed/request ahead of anyone if it goes to arbitration even if it is an advantage because its wrong)..
day one of training in a job classification and that date..is where someone belongs on the combined list.
North by Northwest
Veteran
It has always been NW FAs intention to treat all fairly...DOH. That may not be the case if it goes to arbitration. Being the smaller of the group (with the most long haul flights), the arbitrator would have to see that we are positioned to enjoy our long haul transpacific pay position (prior to the merger), which would clearly mean some junior NW people placed ahead of some of their more senior old Delta people.
If it goes to arbitration Dignity, we have NO say in the matter. The formula used is set, arbitration can not allow a person to suffer economic loss such as opportunity to fly TransPacific. The 60% of old Delta that voted NO (thinking they would selfishly "do better" will have screwed their greedy selves) have brought this upon themselves.
I would advise those that voted no union or didn't vote to WAKE up before you find yourself losing senority along with the current LOSS of pay raise and benefits the pilots got YESTERDAY.
If it goes to arbitration Dignity, we have NO say in the matter. The formula used is set, arbitration can not allow a person to suffer economic loss such as opportunity to fly TransPacific. The 60% of old Delta that voted NO (thinking they would selfishly "do better" will have screwed their greedy selves) have brought this upon themselves.
I would advise those that voted no union or didn't vote to WAKE up before you find yourself losing senority along with the current LOSS of pay raise and benefits the pilots got YESTERDAY.
North,
I understand that in arbitration, but the request should still be the same as far as I am concerned regarding the outcome(prior to the arbitrators decision) and that would be to continue to ask for DOH.
also being the smaller group the larger group will already have an advantage(I agree) so if the other party asks for something different other than DOH and the arbitrator does give the smaller group an advantage based on the other party request.. because we, too have pre-merger expectations then I will accept that number(because it would have been decided by someone else, I have no choice but to accept), but would still not agree with the placement if it is anywhere on the list other than day one of training in a job classification date. that is why it is imperative it is resolved prior to letting someone else decide for both.
at this point however, seniority integration and representation are two separate issues...regardless of the outcome of representation vote or when it occurs, the seniority integration process and seniority list can be resolved prior to an actual election, it just would not go into effect(the list) until both are working under one operating certificate. if the option is for representation, the list while still finalized would not go into effect until there is a contract.
LukeAisleWalker
Veteran
- Sep 29, 2007
- 715
- 2
North, I am confused about something. The Seniority Integration Team is set to meet in the coming weeks. (We are electing our reps now). From what I understand, they would like this wrapped up in the next couple of months. My main question: It looks like AFA will hold an election AFTER either our own agreement with each other or, an arbitrator's decision. But I watched the NWA/DAL AFA vids on Youtube and Pat Friend seemed to say that if AFA is voted in later in '09 that it will resort to date of hire. That seems antithetical to this Seniority Integration Team (which will include NW AFA reps) or an Arbitrator's decision.
Do you or any other readers have any insight?
Thanks.
Luke,
Seniority integration/combing a SSN list and Representation elections are separate issues today(they are separate because representation was not elected at this time by your group prior to the merger and the DOH policy is not in effect for *both*). A seniority list can be made available prior to a election at this point but will not go into effect until either 1) without representation day one when the airline is operating under one certificate or 2) with representation day one after both groups mutually ratify a combined contract.
if both teams decided to wait until after an election and the results were in favor of representation then it would be DOH per the policy(that may be what she is referring to), but there is nothing preventing these meetings commencing next week or next month or having a decision regarding how the list is to be finally determined(the SSN would not go into immediate effect but it would be resolved how it is to be handled), and then that issue can be set aside and then focus on an election later 2009. if the teams are going forward in a few weeks it is because they can..if they choose to do so at this time.
LukeAisleWalker
Veteran
- Sep 29, 2007
- 715
- 2
So let's say hypothetically, in January a mutually-agreed-upon decision is reached. A seniority list is made from this. In say..June or July, AFA wins the election. Are you saying the mutually-agreed-upon seniority list from January is thrown out and DOH is implemented once the joint contract is reached and we become one f/a group?
Because if that is the case, those who are happy with the seniority list will vote NO for AFA and those who feel slighted by the list will obviously vote YES.
Because if that is the case, those who are happy with the seniority list will vote NO for AFA and those who feel slighted by the list will obviously vote YES.
Luke,
If a SSN list is determined by both parties and mutually agreed it is resolved. if both parties do not agree, it goes to arbitration and that decision is final(this can all happen before January, with arbitriation maybe a little longer). There is nothing to throw out after the fact either way.. it cannot be changed simply because the policy is DOH after a successful representation election. the DOH policy with representation would be used as a guideline(policy) going forward in the event of future mergers or the policy that would be used for two airlines merging under the same representation.
If a SSN list is determined by both parties and mutually agreed it is resolved. if both parties do not agree, it goes to arbitration and that decision is final(this can all happen before January, with arbitriation maybe a little longer). There is nothing to throw out after the fact either way.. it cannot be changed simply because the policy is DOH after a successful representation election. the DOH policy with representation would be used as a guideline(policy) going forward in the event of future mergers or the policy that would be used for two airlines merging under the same representation.
North by Northwest
Veteran
Hi Luke
Dignity is spot on with her information. Do remember tho, NW AFA will settle for nothing less than DOH prior to rep. election. Why should they when that is the least they most likely would get in arbitration.
If Delta FAs do not settle on DOH they run the risk of losing sen. Moreover, that 60% that did not vote or voted no during the last election will lose to the NW plus 40% Delta voters.
For them to continue dreaming that their "old" Delta is in charge and will "take care of you" is simply mentally ill and detached from reality. They have Northwest bosses, the ruthless ones that were determined to outsource 75% of our International flying. They did it to 5,000 NW mechanics (with over 40 years sen.) with out blinking an eyelid...then bragged about their bonuses.
The South has notoriously been anti union since Slavery days...that is a cultural fact, far more than any other area of the nation. It stems from the Slave culture of placing the faith of your destiny in the hands of others because of a lack of self confidence, and dependence for leadership on a Master (company) type mentality. This was caused by purposefully keeping Slaves ignorant and frightened of the unknown. Slave owners were afraid of allowing them to to become educated which would have lead to independence/self determination.
I have no doubt that old Delta crew will educate themselves and step up to the challenge of self determination for their future and working conditions. It is beyond my understanding how any adult would put blind faith in a company that has place them in the most financially challenged position of all their competitors. Further ignoring the past conduct of their new leaders at their peril.
They must come to terms with the fact that their old Delta is gone...just like our beloved Northwest.
dapoes
Veteran
- May 17, 2008
- 3,543
- 2,716
I see you have some pretty firm predisposed views of the DAL and the south in general. Slave mentality? That has to be the most ignorant (borderline racist) statement you have said so far (and there have been plenty). Considering that most of ATL is composed of people that were never born in the south and moved in from other areas.
Does it also mean that the rest of the country has this affliction since union membership is at an all time low?
Do you have any facts to support this "cultural fact"? No of course not. But its nice to see your true colors coming thru. I can see your going to blend in well.
Does it also mean that the rest of the country has this affliction since union membership is at an all time low?
Do you have any facts to support this "cultural fact"? No of course not. But its nice to see your true colors coming thru. I can see your going to blend in well.
Where do you get your facts that you guys have more long haul flying than DAL? And you can not count the positions out of your tokyo base that are flown with foriegn nationals. DAL flys as many of not a more long hauls as NWA. Also DAL doesnt have any outsourced flying as NWA does. So it is ok to make comparissons but do not try to distort the numbers.
