Flight Attendants now free to Unionize at Delta

[dapoes]

Well tell that to AFA who refused to pursue the NWA FA's "Me Too Clause" that was in their supposed "iron clad contract". The "me too clause" that would have given all the NWA FA's pay increases. AFA chose not to pursue because of cost (financial problems again at AFA) of the grievance and fear that it would have alienated the DAL FA's. I guess that talking point that AFA has of their team of Attorneys, etc was just another fat lie (no surprise).

So i throw it back into your court....what good is a contract if AFA choses not to enforce?
[/quote

If that was the case, what's wrong with that? "IF". Look 'dapoes', Richard and his buddies may not like to pull from the non-union employees pockets for the "Best interest of Delta", but its business 101, it's a whole lot more easier to give a "rationale reason" to cut pay or jobs to non-union workers than to deal with breaking contract. I ask any non-union Delta employee to read over the terms of employment at Delta. Contracts mean a lot in the world today and I make sure in any dealings I have terms and condition set before activity is taken. Dapoes, Southwind and many other anti-contract promoters know the power of a contract. Thats why I feel these guys are more than a average joe working for a hourly wages. Most anti-union workers wouldn't even take the time out to research on "why they don't need a union". I have a question for you "dapoes" hope you will answer it. What are the benefits you would obtain if non-contract, non-union workers do not unionize at Delta?

Apparently you didn't read what i posted so I will restate yet again.

AFA just recently chose not to pursue the "Me Too Clause" arbitration/grievance that was in the current NWA contract. That provision would have meant a pay raise for the entire NWA FA's. They chose not to because of the expense to argue was to great, (something supposedly like $90K)and would have supposedly alienated the DAL FA's.

This was in the contract, and AFA chose not to pursue irregardless of what the NWA FA's wanted. Some dont even know about it and the rest that do are upset over it.

So again, why should I vote for a contract when AFA will arbitrarily chose which ones they feel are important?

As far as the "benefits you would obtain if non-contract, non-union workers do not unionize at Delta?" I have no idea, and obviously neither does AFA as they cant promise anything. And even if they do it doesn't mean they will follow thru.

 

[WoRkInG]

ame='WoRkInG' date='16 May 2010 - 09:30 AM' timestamp='1274020244' post='744152']


Apparently you didn't read what i posted so I will restate yet again.

AFA just recently chose not to pursue the "Me Too Clause" arbitration/grievance that was in the current NWA contract. That provision would have meant a pay raise for the entire NWA FA's. They chose not to because of the expense to argue was to great, (something supposedly like $90K)and would have supposedly alienated the DAL FA's.

This was in the contract, and AFA chose not to pursue irregardless of what the NWA FA's wanted. Some dont even know about it and the rest that do are upset over it.

So again, why should I vote for a contract when AFA will arbitrarily chose which ones they feel are important?

As far as the "benefits you would obtain if non-contract, non-union workers do not unionize at Delta?" I have no idea, and obviously neither does AFA as they cant promise anything. And even if they do it doesn't mean they will follow thru.

Should you vote or not vote is your right as a American. If the FA's at NWA at the end of the day truly feels the AFA made a bad decison then that's between the workers and the union. At least they know what they have on the table to purse and have a contract to pursue the matter with unlike non-contract workers who have no way of getting to the point of taking anything to court. Just like you said about the benefits of being non-contract, non-union worker, you can not have an idea about it because their isn't a foundation to go by when you are non-contract. Anybody can promise anything in this world and that is why you get a "CONTRACT" to hold them too their words. A painting company can promise me they will not damage my property when painting my home. Is it possible they will not damage any of my property, yes. Will I take that chance and not hold them accoutable to the promise, nope. Look dapoes, labor contracts or contracts of any matter date all the way back to Rome and to this day is still using the same language back then in today's compaines, courts, and commerce terms and conditions between parties. I know of lawyers having lawyers and or contracts set between them and the firm they work for so what is said is made accountable and understanding of what is needed between both parties are recognized. People the name of the game is "CONTRACTS" and don't let anybody tell you different. I ask all of my fellow workers at Delta to research on contracts, unions, and companies so you will be more knowledgeable about voting in a union.

 

[dapoes]

No one is being denied the right to vote. The voting method is what is being debated.

As far as your contracts, you still just don't get it. AFA just admitted that they will not pursue the "Me Too" grievance for NWA FA's because it costs to much.

What good is a contract if its not enforced by the members/institution elected to do so???

BTW contracts are broken and invalidated all the time. Our own government invalidated hundreds of them (creditor agreements/contracts) when they decided to bailout the auto industry.

 

[bagboy]

No one is being denied the right to vote. The voting method is what is being debated.

As far as your contracts, you still just don't get it. AFA just admitted that they will not pursue the "Me Too" grievance for NWA FA's because it costs to much.

What good is a contract if its not enforced by the members/institution elected to do so???

BTW contracts are broken and invalidated all the time. Our own government invalidated hundreds of them (creditor agreements/contracts) when they decided to bailout the auto industry.

The AFA chose not to pursue the "ME TOO" grievance because the IAM has already taken it all the way and lost. Why would the AFA piss their members money away when they know that the fight is all but over? The pilots gained their pay raises and changes to their contract through a job action and by agreeing to drop grievances. The courts sided with the company and agreed that the contract changes in combination with the dropped grievances were "cost neutral".

BTW, contracts are broken and invalidated all the time. Our own government invalidated hundreds of them (creditor agreements/contracts) when they decided to bailout the Airline Industry. You and the rest of the employees at DL/NW(myself included) have befitted from government intervention. The private business owners that lost millions through the bankruptcy of Delta may seem like collateral damage and justified since you were able to keep your job. The auto industry is paying back the money borrowed. Your airline gave their debtors the middle finger, and when forced to pay back some of the debit, only had to pay pennies on the dollar.

 

[Kev3188]

No one is being denied the right to vote. The voting method is what is being debated.

All IAM & AFA members (as well as their potential PMDL counterparts) *are* currently being denied the right to vote. It shouldn't be news to you that both unions tabled their single transportation system requests pending the NMB rule change, under the auspice of resubmission once the changes went into effect. Both have said that they would do so as soon as they went into effect, so in theory, you and I both would've had a ballot on the way to us the 2nd week of June. Now that process is being pushed back further, thanks to DL, it's representative the ATA, and, of course, these guys:

Ginger Kelley - InFlight Service
Mathew R. Palmer - InFlight Service
Ashton Therrel - InFlight Service
Jay D. Parsley - Airport Customer Service
Robert P. Baker III - Reservation Sales

Let me ask you something, Dapoes, and for once, please be honest/not snarky in your reply; do you not want to vote, and see this over and done with (one way or the other)? I sure do.

Furthermore, I'm well aware of how you feel regarding representation. That aside, why do you not find it odd that a company who swore neutrality before congress is now being anything but?

As far as your contracts, you still just don't get it. AFA just admitted that they will not pursue the "Me Too" grievance for NWA FA's because it costs to much.

What good is a contract if its not enforced by the members/institution elected to do so???

I think one thing most union members forget is that sometimes part of A) enforcing CBA's, and B) representing the membership means saying "no." By that I mean that sometimes a grievance may have no merit or is not worth the expense of what you get in return. No one ever likes hearing this, and almost always cries foul, but that's how it goes.

I still don't know the specifics of the 2nd me-too, so I can't comment authoritatively, but perhaps after seeing what the mediator said with regards to the IAM's petition, they decided the membership's money was better spent elsewhere. Kind of a throwing good money after bad scenario?


P.S. Couldn't find the "disable emoticons" button....

 

[dapoes]

All IAM & AFA members (as well as their potential PMDL counterparts) *are* currently being denied the right to vote. It shouldn't be news to you that both unions tabled their single transportation system requests pending the NMB rule change, under the auspice of resubmission once the changes went into effect. Both have said that they would do so as soon as they went into effect, so in theory, you and I both would've had a ballot on the way to us the 2nd week of June. Now that process is being pushed back further, thanks to DL, it's representative the ATA, and, of course, these guys:

Ginger Kelley - InFlight Service
Mathew R. Palmer - InFlight Service
Ashton Therrel - InFlight Service
Jay D. Parsley - Airport Customer Service
Robert P. Baker III - Reservation Sales

Let me ask you something, Dapoes, and for once, please be honest/not snarky in your reply; do you not want to vote, and see this over and done with (one way or the other)? I sure do.

Kev, the AFA has been stalling for months in hopes of the rule change. Now that they got their way they want to hurry up and vote? Sorry, they wanted to make this a contentious battle then that's what they get. Again no one is being denied the right to vote.

Furthermore, I'm well aware of how you feel regarding representation. That aside, why do you not find it odd that a company who swore neutrality before congress is now being anything but?

Because AFA has been playing dirty since day one? They started this fight, so they can't cry foul for what they started.

I think one thing most union members forget is that sometimes part of A) enforcing CBA's, and B) representing the membership means saying "no." By that I mean that sometimes a grievance may have no merit or is not worth the expense of what you get in return. No one ever likes hearing this, and almost always cries foul, but that's how it goes.

I still don't know the specifics of the 2nd me-too, so I can't comment authoritatively, but perhaps after seeing what the mediator said with regards to the IAM's petition, they decided the membership's money was better spent elsewhere. Kind of a throwing good money after bad scenario?

It reeks. First they rubbed it in our face as "see what a contract is good for?" but now, not so much.

So the fact remains is that a contract is really only worth the paper its written on. It may (or may not) be enforced depending on the mood of those elected to do so.

 

[Kev3188]

Kev, the AFA has been stalling for months in hopes of the rule change. Now that they got their way they want to hurry up and vote? Sorry, they wanted to make this a contentious battle then that's what they get.

Who/where said they wanted to make this a contentious battle? Is that a fact, or is it your opinion. While I have seen many official statements alluding to how arduous both campaigns will be, I've never seen anything using the terms "contentious," or "battle."

Again no one is being denied the right to vote.

I am.

Because AFA has been playing dirty since day one? They started this fight, so they can't cry foul for what they started.

You didn't answer my question.

So the fact remains is that a contract is really only worth the paper its written on. It may (or may not) be enforced depending on the mood of those elected to do so.

"Mood" has nothing to do with, unless you count hard, fact-based analysis, past practice, etc. as one....

 

[WoRkInG]

No one is being denied the right to vote. The voting method is what is being debated.

As far as your contracts, you still just don't get it. AFA just admitted that they will not pursue the "Me Too" grievance for NWA FA's because it costs to much.

What good is a contract if its not enforced by the members/institution elected to do so???

BTW contracts are broken and invalidated all the time. Our own government invalidated hundreds of them (creditor agreements/contracts) when they decided to bailout the auto industry.

No, you still don't get because i am talking about having a contract, not who represent you. Regardless of which union you go with, they all have something in common, ''CONTRACTS''.

I think Kev answered the second question quite well. Attorneys opt not to pursue a case everyday due to past judgements on similar cases.

Last but not least the last question about creditor agreements. You might wanna research more into that situation before you use it as a reason for breaking contracts. I wonder what happen to all the people in the auto industry that didn't have contracts? I will hate to know.

 

[dapoes]

Who/where said they wanted to make this a contentious battle? Is that a fact, or is it your opinion. While I have seen many official statements alluding to how arduous both campaigns will be, I've never seen anything using the terms "contentious," or "battle."

You choose to use the words arduous, I use contentious. Fact is AFA has been slinging mud since day one. I wouldn't classify that as arduous.

I am.

Please explain how you are personally being denied to vote under the previous voting methods. Or are you referring to something else?

You didn't answer my question.

What was the question?

"Mood" has nothing to do with, unless you count hard, fact-based analysis, past practice, etc. as one....

That is your opinion Kev. Fact is AFA has done nothing to show what they could do for DAL FA's, rather they lob insults and spit upon them with arrogance. No thanks. I been fine without them and theres a whole mess of NWA FA's looking forward to ridding themselves of them as well.

 

[dapoes]

BTW, contracts are broken and invalidated all the time. Our own government invalidated hundreds of them (creditor agreements/contracts) when they decided to bailout the Airline Industry. You and the rest of the employees at DL/NW(myself included) have befitted from government intervention. The private business owners that lost millions through the bankruptcy of Delta may seem like collateral damage and justified since you were able to keep your job. The auto industry is paying back the money borrowed. Your airline gave their debtors the middle finger, and when forced to pay back some of the debit, only had to pay pennies on the dollar.

Sorry Charlie, thats the legal system we have...called BK. The auto industry (UNIONS) had their hat in hand and Uncle Sam topped it off for them courtesy of the tax payers. Without precedent the government picked the winners and losers, despite the clearly defined BK process that protects 1st lien creditors and told everyone else to jam it. And they haven't been paying it back despite what the liberal media is spoon feeding you.

 

[bagboy]

Sorry Charlie, thats the legal system we have...called BK. The auto industry (UNIONS) had their hat in hand and Uncle Sam topped it off for them courtesy of the tax payers. Without precedent the government picked the winners and losers, despite the clearly defined BK process that protects 1st lien creditors and told everyone else to jam it. And they haven't been paying it back despite what the liberal media is spoon feeding you.

Tell yourself whatever you have to so you can sleep at night. Delta used the system, along with NWA, to fund this bastard ass merger. They F**KED their creditors and never paid back fully what was due to them. I may have missed the mark on GM and others paying their loans back, in full, and early(GM), but I doubt it. The next time you choose to use the auto industry as an example of an industry being held up by the unions and government run corporate welfare, look no farther than your own management, company and each pay check you cash.

 

[Kev3188]

Please explain how you are personally being denied to vote under the previous voting methods. Or are you referring to something else?

You and I are being denied the ability to vote period due to this lawsuit.

What happened to DL's pledge of neutrality? What happened to all those maudlin letters from West, Smith, etc. lamenting how they'd love nothing more than if we poor employees could just vote?

What was the question?

Do you or do you not want to vote and see this resolved?

That is your opinion Kev.

No, it is not. That is absolutely how decisions on whether or not to pursue a grievance are made.

 

[dapoes]

Delta used the system, along with NWA, to fund this bastard ass merger.

Proof please. Or are you just bitter with the outcome?

They F**KED their creditors and never paid back fully what was due to them.

Obviously you have no understanding of Chapter 11 BK is. Do you even know what a BK Judge role is?

I may have missed the mark on GM and others paying their loans back, in full, and early(GM), but I doubt it.

Yes you are 100% correct. You did miss the mark. GM did not pay back anything in full nor early. GM used another TARP loan to pay of the original.
Exhibit A USAToday
Exhibit B ABC NEWS
GM VP Admission
Reporter: Are you just paying the government back with government money?
Mr. Girsky: Well listen, that is in effect true, but a year ago nobody thought we’d be able to pay this back.
TARP Investor General Barofsky Neil M. Barofsky admission.

The next time you choose to use the auto industry as an example of an industry being held up by the unions and government run corporate welfare, look no farther than your own management, company and each pay check you cash.

Last time I checked the government doesn't own DELTA. They did get bailed out by them either.

 

[dapoes]

You and I are being denied the ability to vote period due to this lawsuit.

Thats some spin there Kev. What about when AFA was dragging their heels for months to try to game the system in their favor? Would you say that AFA was denying my right to vote? Or how the NMB had to chew on the proposal for months? Where they denying my right to vote?

What happened to DL's pledge of neutrality? What happened to all those maudlin letters from West, Smith, etc. lamenting how they'd love nothing more than if we poor employees could just vote?

You live in a world that a company should roll over in submission for the unions and the company should go quetly. Thats not the real world.

Do you or do you not want to vote and see this resolved?

I wanted to months ago, but AFA wanted to do what they could to stall for a potential better outcome. To somehow try to throw it back in our faces just shows how disingenuous and outright scummy the union is.

 

[dc92000]

Dapoes,
Since the lawyer in you comes out when you share your expertise regarding the BK process........why dont you explain to all of us about the "KEEP DELTA MY DELTA" campain. Just whos interest did fending off the purchase attempt by USAIR serve?. Certainly not the shareholders, or the creditors. MMMmm. it did serve a management team who believed the BK process was a "tool", or "stratagy". It didnt serve certain hedge-funds so well, and you should know the result of that. I think Bagboy is absolutely correct in his belief that ABUSE of the BK code is something that good companies do not, and should not entertain the thought of, doing. Try to remember........ BK is BAD. Wwell-managed, creative companies who manage through the economic cylces of their respective businesses are GOOD. What road do you think the "New" Delta will be taking ?