Fleet Service Strike Vote

[NYer]

I'm not at AA, or WN, but have read their CBA all the way through several times. As someone from NW (now DL), I'd take their CBA straight away.




As for scope and the flight threshold? Well, here it is:


F. Third Party Contracting. The Company and the Union agree that job security and a
stable work environment are important objectives to be maintained. Therefore, the Company
agrees that contracting with third parties shall be prohibited if it results in a reduction in force or
involuntary furlough. It is the intent of both parties that covered work be done by Southwest
AirlinesEmployees.

1. Should the Company have a need to contract with third parties for the
performanceofcoveredwork,theCompanyshallnotifytheUnionof:

a. The nature of the contract; and
b. The anticipated length of time the third party work shall ber equired.

The Company and the Union agree to discuss the time frames in an attempt to
minimize such third party work and return same to covered Employees. No such
contracting shall occur when and if adequate facilities are available for the
Company'soperations,ramp,and/orfreightneeds.

2. Should the Company have a need to contract with third parties for the
performance of covered work at stations where flight activity does not exceed 12
departures per day, the Company shall be entitled to do so. The Company shall
notifytheUnionof:

a. The nature of the contract; and
b. The anticipated length of time the third party work shall be required.

This provision shall not apply to stations in operation as of date of ratification
(March27,2009).


Note the last sentence. It's a huge one. Using a "straight across" comparison to AA, all of the cities you mentioned would stay.

In their contract is has that protection, but AA has been looking to raise the 7 flight floor in order to close down more stations so I would be surprised if they agreed to keep those cities, but if they do then those cities would be protected...that is why my statement says MAY be in jeopardy. But the agreement would also lower that threshold for future cities or cities that may be on the brink will disappear which is a whole other list.




They get 1 "holiday" (vacation day) a month in addition. Crew chiefs are assigned by gate daily.

Are you referring to the freeday...which only ONE is awarded per AM and PM shift and has to be bid in advance. Nice little scheme, but it does not replace 6 holidays paid at double-time (double time on the holiday, plus the addition of 3 more holidays has already been TA'd)



Having a 401k removes the "Sword of Damocles" hanging over everyone's head that a pension does. I understand why some find it so important, but I also see us giving much more back come contract time in order to "protect the pension."

The Pension is a guaranteed payout at the time of retirement. An amount that is dictated by the amount of service we put in and can be counted on as we get near retirement. The 401K is a nice vehicle, but even the smartest investor will need to rely on the HOPE there is no Dot.com crash or Mortgage Meltdown in the future so they can retire when planned and with the amount planned. Right now, we have a Pension AND a 401K.

 

[Kev3188]

In their contract is has that protection, but AA has been looking to raise the 7 flight floor in order to close down more stations so I would be surprised if they agreed to keep those cities, but if they do then those cities would be protected...that is why my statement says MAY be in jeopardy. But the agreement would also lower that threshold for future cities or cities that may be on the brink will disappear which is a whole other list.

Well, everyone has said "I'd take the WN contract as it stands," not "I'd take the WN contract after AA's team got a hold of it."

Are you referring to the freeday...which only ONE is awarded per AM and PM shift and has to be bid in advance. Nice little scheme, but it does not replace 6 holidays paid at double-time (double time on the holiday, plus the addition of 3 more holidays has already been TA'd)

Maybe not, but the increase in base pay you'd make year round would.

As for the free days, we already have to bid day-at-a-time vacation in advance. Don't you guys?

The Pension is a guaranteed payout at the time of retirement. An amount that is dictated by the amount of service we put in and can be counted on as we get near retirement.

Uh, I know what a pension is, thanks.

The 401K is a nice vehicle, but even the smartest investor will need to rely on the HOPE there is no Dot.com crash or Mortgage Meltdown in the future so they can retire when planned and with the amount planned. Right now, we have a Pension AND a 401K.

...Or the economy can tank so bad that AA foists the pension on the PBGC via BK. Life's unpredictable like that.

You missed my point though; once that $$$ is your account, it's yours to gain or lose on. They never get that free money back. Heck, if you really want, you can put the whole thing in cash.

With an aging workforce, companies know how much more important a pension becomes, and are free to ask more and more in return.

FYI, I have a pension (two, actually) and a 401k here as well.

 

[Bob Owens]

Absolutely not...the Southwest contract is devastating to the AA Fleet Service Clerk. Those that argue otherwise do it because they have not read their contract and are fixated fir the hourly wage. Here are a few items for starters: AA has 3400 daily flights with about 75,000 employees...while SWA has 3200 daily flights but only 34000 employees. That tells me the work rules and productivity it thru the roof.

Whooaaah, wait a minute. How much International does SWA have? How many of those 3200 flights have to be loaded with Cargo and how many bags get loaded into the SWA bellies?

It also tells me that it will mean THOUSANDS of jobs in AA...a few points that bring the hourly wage advantage down a notch or two...A SWA supervisor CAN assist the ramp worker with their duties. The SWA contract has a 12 flight minimum to have TWU represented workers, AA is 7..that could mean the closings of ABQ, BNA, BWI, ELP, FLL, HNL, IAD, IAH, MCI, MSP, MSY, RDU, SJU, TUL & TUS...15 LESS stations for AA.

OK. Theres an advantage for the AA guys. The question is does the cost of keeping those stations staffed equate to the difference in hourly rates across the system?

Overtime is given out by seniority, they only have two holidays, less than 12 days in SK bank equals no pay when you call in SK. There are no Crew Chiefs...on and on...and on. So no...the SWA is not worth it.

Only 2 Holidays? Could you post a link to the Ramp Contract, the mechanics get more than that. I believe they get 12 sick days a year, so after 1 year they have enogh sick time to get paid, we only get five and the company is only offering to bring it up to 8.

Without even going into the larger items like no Pension, no medical benefits for PTers family, higher medical premiums......

They do have a pension and SWA puts more into the pension per worker than AA does with their 8% 401k match. I would agree with no medical for PTs, in fact we should try to eliminate having PT because they come and get jobs just for the benifits, CS away all their time to full timers and get medical benifits for their families at our expense. You have to figure that for every worker you end up with 4.1 people on the plan, if you hire 2 PTs instead of one FT you added 8.2 instead of 4.1 people to the plan, this drives up the cost which the company passes on to us, they get the savings from part time but pass the additional medical costs on to us. The International would never go for this because two PTs for one FT means 4 hours/month worth of dues instead of 2.

What are SWAs medical premiums? I know at one time they paid more but over the last five years ours has gone up 500%.

 

[Kev3188]

The CBA can be found here.


I tried to cut and paste, but it scrunched all the words in the paragraph together...

PT Numbers:

Max of 10% of total system numbers for any given classification (Page 25)


Sick Pay:

FT accrues 8.0 hours per month. PT accrues 6.0. Max of 2400 hours. (Page 30)


One think I like is the ability upon retirement to exchange accrued sick time for insurance coverage. (Page 55).

 

[WorldTraveler]

The CBA can be found here.


PT Numbers:

Max of 10% of total system numbers for any given classification (Page 25)

Part of the reason WN can offer fairly strong full-time job security is that their entire business plan requires moving a fairly large amount of passengers from a city, even if it is their smallest city. Part of WN's ability to maintain low costs (which are are actually only about 10% lower than CO and DL and about 25% lower than AA which is on the high end of network carriers costs) is because of the volume they generate.
WN also requires stimulating a market with its low fares in order to maintain a presence in a city so they can use larger aircraft.....
but with both of these strategies, WN is limited in the number of cities they can serve... they will never serve many cities in the US because their strategy won't work.... so it is also reasonable to say that different labor policies have to be used.

It is also true that WN's ramp labor efficiency is partially due to using only narrowbodies - esp. the 737 which sits low to the ground - and serving short haul markets where there is less baggage. The average haul for a WN passenger is half the distance of AA, DL, and UA.


The more significant aspect of the WN ramp contract is that it is part of one of the most successful labor-mgmt partnerships in the airline industry - worldwide. WN and its unions exist because both work to make sure each other wins. That type of mindset is completely absent in most US network carrier labor-mgmt relationships and until there is a desire on both sides to work within that frame, the airlines themselves will take every opportunity to reduce the influence of unions.

 

[NYer]

Well, everyone has said "I'd take the WN contract as it stands," not "I'd take the WN contract after AA's team got a hold of it."


If the choice were up to US, then we would keep some of the stuff we already have and not give up voluntarily. The quote was that WE would trade the WSA contract for the AA contract. After that we'd have to contend with what AA wants and they have been looking to modify the minimum flight schedule to something substantially more than 12. (something near the 20's)

Maybe not, but the increase in base pay you'd make year round would.

With Ot being done by seniority the bump in base pay will not make up the loss of OT. Our system tries to equalize the OT to distribute it more evenly.

As for the free days, we already have to bid day-at-a-time vacation in advance. Don't you guys?

We don't currently have "free-days"





Uh, I know what a pension is, thanks.




...Or the economy can tank so bad that AA foists the pension on the PBGC via BK. Life's unpredictable like that.

You missed my point though; once that $$$ is your account, it's yours to gain or lose on. They never get that free money back. Heck, if you really want, you can put the whole thing in cash.

With an aging workforce, companies know how much more important a pension becomes, and are free to ask more and more in return.

FYI, I have a pension (two, actually) and a 401k here as well.

In the PBGC we would get the mayority of the pension owed to us.

 

[Kev3188]

After that we'd have to contend with what AA wants and they have been looking to modify the minimum flight schedule to something substantially more than 12. (something near the 20's)

I've seen what AA is asking for. That's not the issue here. The question is whether or not people would take WN's CBA *as it is* right now. Not after negotiations, not after 2 years, etc. To me, WN's 12 flight threshold doesn't apply to any city opened prior to 2009. Has AA opened a station to M/L ramp in the last year or so?

With Ot being done by seniority the bump in base pay will not make up the loss of OT. Our system tries to equalize the OT to distribute it more evenly.

Relying on OT says that AA's base rate needs to go up.

At NW, we have equalization too. On that specific issue, you and I agree.

We don't currently have "free-days"

You can't use your vacation in day-at-a-time increments?

 

[FrequentFlierCA]

In the PBGC we would get the mayority of the pension owed to us.

How much of your pension you would get from PBGC depends on the value of the payout you were due. TWU and APFA members in the top 1/3 would probably take decent sized hits, but in this scenario it is the pilots who would really get screwed. They should fear bankruptcy more than any of you.

We haven't heard from the NMB in a while... I am very curious what the thought process is over there with respect to potential releases to the cooling off period. Especially now that there are multiple strike authorizations on the table.

 

[Large Grey]

background checks ? are they really doing them

I often wonder if the people cleaning the planes are even supposed to be in the country.

 

[nbmcg01]

I often wonder if the people cleaning the planes are even supposed to be in the country.

AA and every company sub contracted uses E-Verify. So yes Arizona, the people cleaning the planes are supposed to be in the country. I can obtain a full background check on a potential employee in a matter of hrs.