Fight The Lcc?

[mrplanes]

Tens of thousands of employees of all work categories laid off.

Hundreds of jets parked in the desert.

LCC's stealing our passengers.

Simple solution: Start a subsidiary using the laid off workforce and the parked jets copying the route structure, working conditions, contracts and management style of WN. As Siegel said yesterday, PRECISELY. Use the same contracts as WN. The same jets. The same routes. The same pricing. The whole shebang. Compete with them on their ground. I assure you 99% of our furloughed would jump at the chance to work under WN contracts and conditions.

Want to take bets Dave hasn't the guts to try something this bold? Or the expertise to pull it off?

mr

 

[PhillyFlyGuy]

Sounds like the perfect idea for a solution to fight the LCC's and to take on newer market share. Just have to get the labor to sign on which might be a tough sell. If it brought back laid off workers that would be a good thing.

 

[UseYourHead]

Tens of thousands of employees of all work categories laid off.

Hundreds of jets parked in the desert.

LCC's stealing our passengers.

Simple solution: Start a subsidiary using the laid off workforce and the parked jets copying the route structure, working conditions, contracts and management style of WN. As Siegel said yesterday, PRECISELY. Use the same contracts as WN. The same jets. The same routes. The same pricing. The whole shebang. Compete with them on their ground. I assure you 99% of our furloughed would jump at the chance to work under WN contracts and conditions.

Want to take bets Dave hasn't the guts to try something this bold? Or the expertise to pull it off?

mr

That is the plan the mainline....

 

[flyin2low]

"Simple solution: Start a subsidiary using the laid off workforce and the parked jets copying the route structure, working conditions, contracts and management style"

That wouldn't be an alter ego, would it?

We could all save management the hassels of starting up a new competitive carrier by saying YES to more concessions and less head counts in our ranks.

 

[767jetz]

Sounds like a reasonable plan on the surface. However when you look deeper, it's called whip-sawing. Creating a alter-ego airline at b-scale or c-scale rates to use as a hammer against the mainline.

This is exactly what UA's original idea was for for our LCO.

It would be the death toll for the mainline, and those employees would probably not respond well to the idea of having any expansion go to junior employees willing to work at any cost.

The best thing for US IMO would be to cut a deal that keeps any expanded flying under the current umbrella and seniority list. This would mean the eventual return of furloughed employees and not kill the mainline.

 

[Light Years]

Whipsawing? Alter-ego airlines? Thats right up U's alley- the 7th largest US carrier with ELEVEN Express operators.

I'd go back to work for WN work rules and pay. Beats MDA!

 

[Jon153]

just a thought... have any of the legacy carriers ever thought of teaming up and putting so many millions of dollars in to starting ONE LCC to compete against everyone else... They could rehire everyone who was layed off and when time called for it those employees could go back to their original parent company. There are so many planes parked out in desert and if all of the airlines worked together to fight the low cost rivals the majors could defeat them! it's WAR

 

[UseYourHead]

The best thing for US IMO would be to cut a deal that keeps any expanded flying under the current umbrella and seniority list. This would mean the eventual return of furloughed employees and not kill the mainline.

I agree,

I was a b-scale guy hired in the mid 80s. I would now, as a mid seniority placed pilot, like to think that we can all take the same hit. Speaking for myself, I will gladly do just that.

This will keep mainline viable, prevent whipsaw opportunities, and promote unity within our own ranks. It is also the quickest way for furloughees to return to a mainline job.

With financial strength will come opportunities to participate in some of the economic prosperity.

 

[mrman]

if all of the airlines worked together to fight the low cost rivals the majors could defeat them! it's WAR

I think this is against the law!

If you guys had the same pay scale as WN it may end up as a raise, ie rampers, 73 pilots etc.

I think its more work rules than anything. Do you think you could get a US FA to clean a plane between flights or lift a bag in the overhead? Could you reduce your gates so the planes turn around in 30 minutes and rampers would be assigned one gate because as soon as one plane leaves another is waiting? This is where WN has an advantage

 

[Boeingguy]

The big thing is not contractual pay rates but the level of productivity which can only be approached by the constant flow of aircraft in and out of gates as opposed to the hub and spoke 'bank' system. The hub and spoke has efficiencies for revenue (passenger efficiency) but is far less efficient as far as assets and employees. The steady flow of flights, rather than a rush of activity and then a ghost town for several hours allows SWA to run the same number of passengers from ticket counter space half as large as the same counter space as another airline with the same number of passengers. The same philosophy with the gates...twice the flights with half the gates - and gate leases are not cheap. Don't forget debt load servicing -- SWA always grew out of internal profits and never took on huge amounts of debt in order to get to some "critical mass" or "keeping up with the Joneses" i.e the other airlines. Huge efficiencies with one type of aircraft....the list goes on and on and goes well beyond just labor costs. And when other airline managements say "SWA labor costs are less than ours -- we must make cuts" -- don't fall for it. The lower labor costs are due to an efficient structure, not so much with actual pay rates.


Also, at least as far as pilots -- you can't just match pay rates. You'd have to have a stock option plan that actually was worthwhile and provided millions in total income to the pilot group above and beyond the 'hourly' (trip) pay rates. Additionaly, for all the workers including pilots -- you'd also have to have a profit sharing plan.....THAT ACTUALLY WAS ONE. It has proved to be quite an incentive for SWA employees because it's not just a profit sharing program in words -- it really is one.

 

[F/AinDay]

...I think its more work rules than anything. Do you think you could get a US FA to clean a plane between flights or lift a bag in the overhead?

mrman,

F/A's DO clean airplanes at many of our stations, not exactly sure of the number.

What does putting a customers bag in an overhead have to do with anything to save money? <_<

 

[N421LV]

Simple solution: Start a subsidiary using the laid off workforce and the parked jets copying the route structure, working conditions, contracts and management style of WN. As Siegel said yesterday, PRECISELY. Use the same contracts as WN. The same jets. The same routes. The same pricing. The whole shebang. Compete with them on their ground. I assure you 99% of our furloughed would jump at the chance to work under WN contracts and conditions.

Here's an even simpler solution: If you're willing to work under a SWA contract, why not take matters into your own hands and apply for a job at SWA?

 

[CLT-Douglas]

The problem with the legacy carriers is that they turn out competing against themselves rather then the LCC competition. In my opinion, creating a airline with in an airline is nothing more than a band-aid. Sure, they can compete with the LCC now, but they are still taking business away from the host airline which created them. They end up shooting themselves in the foot at the end of the day.

Either destroy your business plan, and start from scratch to become a LCC yourself, or take what you have and build on it to offer more then any LCC could provide by purchasing a ticket on your airline. US Airways is trying to go right in the middle of those two paths, and so far it is just not working. A small company might be able to make drastic changes efficiently and successfully However, when you have a company the size of US Airways, it is not surprising that any change becomes a tug of war between management and employees, leaving the door wide open for the competition to make your company's decisions for you.

Maybe it's time for US Airways to declare what page it is on for once and let the people decide if US Airways is the airline for them or not.

 

[mrplanes]

421:

"Here's an even simpler solution: If you're willing to work under a SWA contract, why not take matters into your own hands and apply for a job at SWA?"

Many of our furloughed already have. You seem to be missing the point. How to combat the lcc's. We have the ability to do just what I said. There are ways to create such a subsidiary while not "whip-sawing" the current airline. But it would take vision, intelligence, leadership, motivation, and solid management working WITH labor not against it. With Siegel, we have none of the above. Hence, it will most likely not happen. But it would be an easy and effective way to keep and increase the passengers who prefer this type of airline service.

mr

 

[diogenes]

421:

"Here's an even simpler solution: If you're willing to work under a SWA contract, why not take matters into your own hands and apply for a job at SWA?"

Many of our furloughed already have. You seem to be missing the point. How to combat the lcc's. We have the ability to do just what I said. There are ways to create such a subsidiary while not "whip-sawing" the current airline. But it would take vision, intelligence, leadership, motivation, and solid management working WITH labor not against it. With Siegel, we have none of the above. Hence, it will most likely not happen. But it would be an easy and effective way to keep and increase the passengers who prefer this type of airline service.

mr

mrplanes,

Here's why your idea, which is wonderful on many levels, will NOT be implemented at U.

It'd prove you could pay good wages and benes AND make a profit. (wait...WN IS proving that!)

At U, that is the wrong solution. You are the problem, not the solution.

Geez, hadn't the thought-control taken hold with you yet? <_<

The beatings will continue until moral improves.