Emergency landing after row of seats comes loose

[eolesen]

Why anyone with half a brain bites on the absolute BS line of soda, coffee or now popcorn in the seat tracks just amazes me.

Agree as far as the soda/coffee/food angle, but if the airline is going ahead with a mod to the locking clip, I can't be the only one questioning if there really is a problem with the clip design and certification process.

Wouldn't it be ironic if sloppy work at TIMCO is what exposed a larger issue?...

 

[mike7863]

i dont care if there is soda or coffee or pop corn in the tracks any good mechanic would clean the track before installing the seat. it makes sliding the seat back and forth to get it to lock in a hell of alot easier. hell before you install any part you make sure the area is clean of debris.

 

[1AA]

Agree as far as the soda/coffee/food angle, but if the airline is going ahead with a mod to the locking clip, I can't be the only one questioning if there really is a problem with the clip design and certification process.

Wouldn't it be ironic if sloppy work at TIMCO is what exposed a larger issue?...

Yes it would. The larger issue is that outsourcing costs more money in the long run. In our case the long run was a short run. Sometimes I think that HQ has been outsourced since Crandall left.

 

[1AA]

i dont care if there is soda or coffee or pop corn in the tracks any good mechanic would clean the track before installing the seat. it makes sliding the seat back and forth to get it to lock in a hell of alot easier. hell before you install any part you make sure the area is clean of debris.

My little pocket screwdriver worked really good in getting the tracks clean. Lots of crap gets in those tracks. You are correct that if debris is in the track at the spot where the locking mechanism sits it will not properly lock in. If properly installed by an experienced AMT you can see it is in the track and locked down. Similar to a go/no-go gage. Then common sense used by a person who is mechanically inclined always gives the seat a kick or shove to make sure it is not going to move. No masters Degree in Rocket Science needed to install or remove these seats.

 

[Boomer]

Agree as far as the soda/coffee/food angle, but if the airline is going ahead with a mod to the locking clip, I can't be the only one questioning if there really is a problem with the clip design and certification process.

Wouldn't it be ironic if sloppy work at TIMCO is what exposed a larger issue?...

Coffee, Coke and Popcorn: Really?, is that the best you can deliver to cover the abject failure to demand Contractor Performance; Really?, is that the best you can deliver to cover the abject failure to provide adequate oversight of significant maintenance performed on behalf of a 121 Air Carrier?

Give me a break!

Some number of years ago, LAX has an aircraft roll into the perimeter fence because it was left unchocked and the brake pressure bled down: the company answer was that going forward, we would double chock the aircraft. Nobody questioned the fact that if a well trained crew initially failed to chock an aircraft, as required under the GPM, how would the company reasonably conclude that an additional requirement to place two sets of chocks in that aircraft actually become reality.

Instead of dealing with the few individuals that did not chock the aircraft, AA went on a bender for the, "global policy," that would apply across all segments of the operation without understanding that the diversity they purport to support is the competitive advantage they need to succede while simultaneously seeking to deprive any and all stations of policy decisions that removed the diversity from global standards which optimized the strengths locally available.

The problem then, as now, is that those purportedly running the operation had a clue.

The TIMCO operation is a continuous train wreck wherein untrained, newly minted A&P Mechanics are fielded by the contractor and soley placed into a situation where the only Management Representation is from AA Production and AA QA.

To date, in my station: TIMCO Management has never been present.

The Single Representative of AA Mgt., the Production Manager, is regularly on the premises at twenty hour intervals; the AA QA comes and goes on the sliding scale.

Untrained Vendor Mechanics, without Vendor Management, relying on overstressed AA Production Managers that are tasked with a project without logistical support and vaugely supported by AA QA cannot possibly cover all the mayhem created by turning loose untrained Organ Monkeys being asked to dance without having been trained; and, whose tempo is governed by an Organ Grinder located in a cubicle in TULE.

SwissAir was brought down by a failure in the entertainment system that led to a fire propagated through the insulation leading to a complete loss of the aircraft, crew and passengers while ValueJet was brought down by the failure to adequately secure the O2 generators subsequently placed in the cargo hold and then igniting cargo hold components and leading to a complete loss of the aircraft, crew and passengers.

TIMCO has been found to be improperly securing wiring terminations in the passenger entertainment systems and power ports while simultaneously moving the overhead passenger units housing the electrical harnesses for cabin call and lighting that are located inches away from the O2 generators and the Cabin O2 Masks which must be dropped, electrically, in the event of a sudden cabin depressurization.

No one is saying that the failures of AA Management, and the OSV, TIMCO, to adequately oversee the third party maintenance actions of TIMCO will result in either a SwissAir or ValueJet disaster.

What I am saying is that based on the Human Factors training I have received at AA: I refuse to become one of the seven independant links statistically credited as a contributing factor in another aviation disaster.

The FAA, AA and TIMCO need to have a heart to heart discussion about the managerial control exercised over maintenance functions performed on behalf of AA by TIMCO, but, which are soley owned by AA as the 121 Air Carrier Certificate holder.

 

[unionguy1]

My little pocket screwdriver worked really good in getting the tracks clean. Lots of crap gets in those tracks. You are correct that if debris is in the track at the spot where the locking mechanism sits it will not properly lock in. If properly installed by an experienced AMT you can see it is in the track and locked down. Similar to a go/no-go gage. Then common sense used by a person who is mechanically inclined always gives the seat a kick or shove to make sure it is not going to move. No masters Degree in Rocket Science needed to install or remove these seats.

The planes came from Timco. The seats were not changed out on the Line. Every seat we took off the aircraft at overhaul not one was ever loose in the track. When the interior was removed we cleaned the tracks and replaced the tracks as necessary.When the seats were installed back in the aircraft they were installed correctly and inspected with a QA buyback. Any other scenerio is pure BS. AA wanted cheap labor so with the cheap labor comes shoddy work. Nothing more Nothing less. As the line mechanic stated above if work is done to a seat on the line the track is cleaned, seat is tightened and tested to make sure it is in the track. The Company can play it in the papers how they want. AA's outsourced contract labor sucks and the seats are proof. The labor rate to have your lawnmower fixed is more than the labor rate that Timco charges.

 

[2ndGENAMT]

Not really interested in taking a side in this one -- seems that some are jumping to an immediate conclusion, and it might not be as simple as inexperienced or even unqualified techs at a vendor.

If it really is an issue with the locking pins (not that I'm believing the soda and coffee story), it's possible that the issue could have occurred regardless of who did the work.

Again, can someone tell me who else is using the same clamp design on the 757?

The seat/clamp is not the issue IMO..


They are inspecting 47 aircraft!! My guess is these are the ones that went through the Cabin Improvement Program and had new interiors/seats installed.. All of these airplanes flew just fine after the CIP and it is my opinion that the TIMCO re-pitch with incompetent techs and poor oversight is the cause of the seat failures..

Soda and debris can make it difficult to install a seat row, but if one is aware of the mechanism that holds the seat in the track it is easily dealt with and IMO the people installing them at re-pitch did not have the experience to do the job correctly..



Future seat installations will not be a problem for outside vendors as I am sure they will correct the issue.. The bigger question is what will the next maintenance/oversight problem cause to fail??

 

[FWAAA]

The seat/clamp is not the issue IMO..

While AA may be lying, AA's latest statements disagrees with you:

The airline initially blamed incorrectly installed saddle clamps before determining that a buildup of residue from spilled sodas, coffee and juice had kept locking pins from remaining in place, David Campbell, American’s vice president for safety, security and environmental, said in an interview today.

“We look every month because we have seen they were coming loose a little more than the average fleet we have,” he said. “We have a very aggressive maintenance program. There were just generally problems with the seat in terms of how it’s designed compared to later designs out there.”

The seats, which have been used for years, differ from others because two locks are torque-tightened and two tightened by hand instead of all being torque-tightened. The manufacturer recommends inspections every 18 months, Campbell said.

The airline and U.S. Federal Aviation Administration are continuing an investigation into the incidents. American mechanics are installing a redundant locking mechanism to address the issue.

“We have a lot of confidence that this is what caused those events,” Campbell said. The seats are only used on 48 of the airline’s 102 757s.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-10-05/american-says-757s-seats-had-history-of-coming-loose.html?cmpid=yhoo

AA says that these 48 planes have used these seats for years, so I doubt that they are the 757s with new seats via the CIP. Presumably, the CIP will correct this problem, as seats with less fragile clamps will be installed.

They are inspecting 47 aircraft!! My guess is these are the ones that went through the Cabin Improvement Program and had new interiors/seats installed.. All of these airplanes flew just fine after the CIP and it is my opinion that the TIMCO re-pitch with incompetent techs and poor oversight is the cause of the seat failures..

Soda and debris can make it difficult to install a seat row, but if one is aware of the mechanism that holds the seat in the track it is easily dealt with and IMO the people installing them at re-pitch did not have the experience to do the job correctly..

The article says that AA is installing a redundant locking mechanism to help prevent the problem from recurring. Of course it's your opinion that Timco's incompetence caused this failure, but the facts don't appear to support that view.

 

[FWAAA]

Again, can someone tell me who else is using the same clamp design on the 757?

According to this article, the 48 affected planes are flying with an AA-exclusive seat clamp mechanism:

The seats, which have been used for years, differ from others because two locks are torque-tightened and two tightened by hand instead of all being torque-tightened. The manufacturer recommends inspections every 18 months, Campbell said.

The seats were designed and made specifically for American by Zodiac Aerospace’s Weber Aircraft Inc. unit in Gainesville, Texas. Robert Funk, vice president of sales and marketing for Weber, said in an e-mail that he couldn’t immediately respond.

http://www.bloomberg...html?cmpid=yhoo

This confirms what Bob Owens mentioned the other day about two of the clamps being hand-tightened and two being tightened and torqued with wrenches. From the article, it appears that these peculiar clamps are used on just 48 of AA's 757s.

 

[1AA]

Wait until they come out of a heavy on the first functional flight.
AA has to recruit pilots with rather large family jewels.

 

[amt66]

While AA may be lying, AA's latest statements disagrees with you:



http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-10-05/american-says-757s-seats-had-history-of-coming-loose.html?cmpid=yhoo

AA says that these 48 planes have used these seats for years, so I doubt that they are the 757s with new seats via the CIP. Presumably, the CIP will correct this problem, as seats with less fragile clamps will be installed.



The article says that AA is installing a redundant locking mechanism to help prevent the problem from recurring. Of course it's your opinion that Timco's incompetence caused this failure, but the facts don't appear to support that view.

FYI I worked Ot the other day on one if these 757 and this particular 75 had the old interior so I don't think it went thru the cip yet. Also the redundant locking mechanism is nothing more than a tie wrap.

 

[2ndGENAMT]

While AA may be lying, AA's latest statements disagrees with you:



http://www.bloomberg...html?cmpid=yhoo

AA says that these 48 planes have used these seats for years, so I doubt that they are the 757s with new seats via the CIP. Presumably, the CIP will correct this problem, as seats with less fragile clamps will be installed.



The article says that AA is installing a redundant locking mechanism to help prevent the problem from recurring. Of course it's your opinion that Timco's incompetence caused this failure, but the facts don't appear to support that view.

While AA may be lying, AA's latest statements disagrees with you:

I don't believe they are being fully forthcoming with all the facts..
Are the aircraft with problems CIP aircraft?
Are the aircraft that had the problems out of the seat re-pitch

AA says that these 48 planes have used these seats for years, so I doubt that they are the 757s with new seats via the CIP.

I left the 757 CIP/Overhaul line over 1 1/2 years ago and we were already into it for some time so when they make a statement like this I don't really know how to interpret..

Of course it's your opinion that Timco's incompetence caused this failure, but the facts don't appear to support that view.

Yes, I use my opinions and best guesses when all of the facts are not known!!
I do know one fact and it comes from busting a lot of seats loose during a heavy check and that is soda,juice and coffee makes it MORE difficult to unlock a seat..

I have heard TIMCO not installing a shroud seal on an engine shaft and shelling out an RB211 on run..
I have heard a fan cowl with an attempted hot bond was destroyed by TIMCO!
I have heard about many field trips to TIMCO by Tech Crew Chiefs to correct problems!!

FWAAA if you have any facts about which seats were involved and who last installed them please enlighten me..

 

[FWAAA]

Here's a photo of one plane's loose seats:

http://gothamist.com/2012/10/03/more_american_airlines_seats_coming.php

Those are the old 757 seats, not the new CIP seats.

 

[FWAAA]

FYI I worked Ot the other day on one if these 757 and this particular 75 had the old interior so I don't think it went thru the cip yet. Also the redundant locking mechanism is nothing more than a tie wrap.

Thanks. As of mid-June, there were 33 active 757s that had been thru the CIP; does anyone have current numbers?

The photo I posted above were definitely old interior seats.

 

[2ndGENAMT]

My "guess" was based on the number of aircraft being inspected which I estimated from the number of CIP's likely done..

Are all the seats that have come loose the older interiors?
Are all the seats that have come loose been re-pitched by outside vendors?

If the seats are the old style seat or new CIP seat why is the problem just now showing up?

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/10/03/uk-americanairlines-seats-idUSLNE89200T20121003

Our maintenance and engineering teams have discovered that the root cause is a saddle clamp improperly installed on the foot of the row leg," the company said in a statement.

IMO this problem is not a design/engineering problem, it is an installation problem and at HC's and Lite checks and even MODS done inhouse their is always an inspection done after installation and soda, coffee and juice are NOT lubricants...

FWAAA why does it seem like you are supportive of outsourcing?
What is your capacity at the company?